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On Music ...

George J

Herefordshire member
In these strange times when we cannot meet beloved friends - I have only seen one, at a social distance of course, in the last twelve months - one is apt to get glued too much to the computer and emails as a method of conversing.

I just wrote to a friend who was curious about my love of music, and I wrote what is effectively a rambling testament on what music is for me with little aim but just an outpouring of the simple, elemental fact that without music I would not still be a fairly normally functioning human. Only friends mean more to me:

On music, well I was just born like I am. No skills learned since childhood, but something that made a seven or eight year old recognise JS Bach's "Jesu joy ..." in a transcription for organ, simply something else. I got my first four LPs for my tenth birthday. Schubert's Unfinshed, and Great C Major Symphonies, Elgar's First and Beethoven's Pastoral.

I was having piano lessons, though I was no good. I knew what I wanted, but my fingers would not do it. Extreme frustration resulted. But I taught myself to read a conductor's score, starting with the Great C Major. That was a revelation and showed me immediately how much conductors vary in approach. Also how bad recordings often are. Whole lines of music - especially violas - not even audible, let alone beautiful! That observation as a ten year old. But this love left me at school in a minority of one. Nobody understood my interest at all. Very soon I discovered Haydn, and he has been my co-favourite composer for nearly fifty years. Initially I was a great enthusiast for Elgar, Beethoven and Schubert, but more and more I learned the music of Sibelius, and Bach and now my eclectic choice of most treasured composers is Bach and Haydn at first place equal, and Sibelius running up very close. Of course I am fond of a huge amount of music from Mozart, Beethoven, even Brahms, Tchaikovsky, and a very soft spot for Greig. Loads of others.

There is a sizeable selection of music I find disturbing, not just unpleasant, but makes me feel upset. Almost all Mahler, almost all Wagner, almost all Bruckner, almost all opera. and surprisingly also almost all violent music like VW's Fourth Symphony. But I do like Stravinsky, which I cannot fathom why I would enjoy it, but it gets to me. So the music was inside, and I discovered it for myself.

As an innocent child who had never had a good discussion about any of this, there comes a sad story. We used to have Musical Appreciation lessons - forty-five minutes of gramophone replay with basic analysis and history of the music [usually symphony or concerto] in question last thing before lunch on Saturdays. Of the whole school, I was the only one who relished this. By the age of thirteen I could identify each movement of each Beethoven symphony with certainty even from only a very few seconds, and I knew them all from the conductor's score as well. Same for many other works, though Bach was strangely absent from the school LP library. So I raided the 3,000 plus 78s to discover JSB! Hence my enjoyment of Adolf Busch in the Brandenburgs. This is one rare case where first acquaintance with a recording has not been eclipsed by other more compelling ones. In the case of Busch I rank his efforts alongside those of HM Linde, and Otto Klemperer.

Well the sad story was that the music master did not like me. He preferred kids who were good at Rugger and Football, and Cricket. I loved cricket, but was hopeless because without glasses my eyesight is terrible now and was then. I hated Rugger and Football with a vengeance, and that has not changed since. I had a new LP of Beethoven's Choral Symphony - Paris Conservatoire Orchestra on Music For Pleasure - and the school library had the famous EMI recording on two LPs of Klemperer. I knew both performances, and studied the score carefully to see which one was the best. An informed, almost chapter and verse position - if you like - on which one was most faithful to the text, and then so to understand why one was more effective as a performance ...

So the music master asked me to borrow my Paris orchestra LP as it was without scratches or wear. I said that was fine, but asked why he would want to teach the music with such a terrible performance? He was apoplectic that I should dare to have a critical view of a performance as an eleven year old. I made it worse by explaining giving examples what was wrong in Paris and where Klemperer had got it right. Mainly a question of lucid balances, correct tempo relationships and clear phrasing that lends power and expression to the performance. Oh dear. I had two more years at the school and the man never spoke to me again about music.

My father hated my music appreciation also. That is another whole sad story ...

I never did play the piano well, and eventually decided to learn more of music by playing a stringed instrument. Strangely I found the double bass. I got quite good at that, playing in ad hoc pro orchestras before my left hand let me down with a repetitive strain injury from pressing down on the heavy strings. Well I learned a lot, and eventually had two pupils on the bass! One via a private music school and the other an adult who I managed to turn from Jazz to classical music! Once I got him hooked on classics, he said that he had wasted three parts of lifetime chasing second rate music. I could not possibly have commented on that to him. But it is true that I cannot stand free-form Jazz, though I do enjoy Ella Fitzgerald singing the more formal songs she did so well. Though when she does scat ... no no no. I cannot stand it.

To me the greatest music is that totally abstract ideal of non-vocal composition with no stated programme. Say a Haydn Symphony or Quartet, or a Bach Prelude and Fugue. Nothing but pure expression that is not defined in words, but is all the same powerful in the potential for uplift in mental state. That's all I find. I hate loud music. Sibelius rarely gets to sustained horrible loudness, but why does the Choral Symphony have to try to bludgeon you into Joy? If you take the Chaconne from the Second Violin Partita, this leads you a long journey from dark to light with the subtlest means.

So I cannot claim anything beyond what nature gave me, and gave me the curiosity to become a real student of the topic.


I hope that was not too much of an imposition. Best wishes from George
 
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George, I'm curious to know what Stravinsky you like, give his many and varied stylist periods
 
I have a friend that would agree with you completely about the supremacy of purely instrumental, non-programmatic music, the opposite to what he disdainfully calls 'Gebrauchsmusik" (obviously that's a known concept). However he does also like Mahler and Wagner & Richard Strauss operas especially! We all have very different tastes. I also have problems with some Beethoven symphonies, I don't really like the 5th much (heresy) where joy is also expressed with force. By the way was it the Schuricht Beethoven 9 on MfP that you compared unfavourably to Klemperer's? A precocious youth you were for sure!
 
Dear Jon,

Some favourite Stravinsky:


Stravinsky Symphony In Three Movements from Otto Klemperer. Surprising on several levels.


Pulcinella. The recording with the Philharmonia is much finer. Klemperer was one of the greatest Stravinsky conductors of any era.

I suspect that it may be the wisdom and natural warmth of Klemperer's performances that have drawn me to Stravinsky, whereas many recordings strike a less humane quality.


Dumbarton Oaks conducted by the composer. Less secure than what Klemperer managed when recording the composer's music, and less well done than I heard it live in Cheltenham Town Hall with the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra. I have yet to find a recording I like, though the music I love.

Quite range of styles, and I agree about that, but Beethoven had a wider range as did Bach.

Dear Schneiderhan,

I was trying to avoid using the name Schuricht to avoid hurting any fans of his feeling! Wilma Lipp was the eminent solo soprano in the Finale!

I thought that recording had sunk below the RADAR these days!

Best wishes from George
 
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It probably has, I like its energy. And the interesting sounds from the French orchestra which disbanded soon after. But I'm a big Klemperer admirer of course also particularly in Beethoven so no feelings not hurt!

Matt
 
Dear Matt,

I find it goes too fast for the benefit of many details of articulation and phrasing. Reading the score only emphasised that I could hear something, but not was was written down in notes. The notes themselves were more interesting than the sound of some orchestra section trying and failing to make them clear ... I got myself into trouble over it then, and might offend a few even today.

Best wishes from George
 
Hmm, Klemperer. The conductor who considered himself perfectly entitled to cut 7 minutes of music from the finale of the greatest symphony ever completed, Bruckner's 8th. That, I'm afraid, makes him a monster of egotism.
 
Dear Marshamp,

My over-riding impression of Klemperer is that he may not always have been at his best in extreme old age, but his music making is characterised by an honest directness, which is a long way from being a monster of egotism.

There is wonderful quote from him after the last rehearsal of Fidelio at the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden, when he addressed the eminent soloists, Chorus and Orchestra.

"Remember tonight is about Beethoven. Nothing else."

Best wishes from George
 
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A pity, then, that Klemperer's Bruckner wasn't all about Bruckner. From a review on Musicweb International:

"...Klemperer decided to make his own edition making cuts (bars 211-387 and 582-647) amounting to about seven minutes of music. They prove far from convincing.

In 'Otto Klemperer - his life and times' by Peter Heyworth (Volume 2, CUP 1996, p353) the conductor gave his explanation: 'In the last movement of Bruckner's Eighth Symphony I have made cuts. In this instance it seems to me that the composer was so full of musical invention that he went too far. Brucknerians will object, and it is certainly not my intention that these cuts should be considered as a model for others. I can only take responsibility for my own interpretation.'
..."

Conductors who think themselves better qualified than great composers to decide what does and doesn't work are not interpreting, they are re-writing. They should know their place.

But not to worry! Other conductors are available for Brucknerians :)
 
I've read Peter Heyworth's biography, it's wonderful and manages to conjure up vividly the different worlds that Klemperer lived in. So as well as telling the amazing story of Klemperer's life it is also a fascinating record of the musical milieu at any given time e.g. of the Kroll Opera. Tully Potter's biography of Adolf Busch is like this is also although I have to confess I haven't read it all and it's a bit too fond of making lists (George - I know you're a fan of Adolf Busch, have you read this 2 volume masterwork?). And albeit he was an autocrat, Klemperer comes across as having huge integrity (and bravery). The quote above shows a sense of responsibility even if you think what he did was wrong. I think also we have to accept that conductors of that era (who were often trained and active as composers as well, as indeed Klemperer was) - and near contemporaries of a conductor like Bruckner, did for better or worse feel entitled to make alterations / cuts. Klemperer isn't alone in thinking that the final movement of 8 is problematic. The Schuricht Beethoven mentioned above features 'tamperings' by Weingartner. But I take your point and it goes against how we approach compositions now. One last point, if I understand it correctly men like Klemperer did a lot to promote a respect to the composer and the written text (Neue Sachlichkeit and all that) and free interpretations from romantic excess - e.g. audible woodwind parts and inner parts generally that were usually buried in a blanket of strings.
 
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Schneiderhan, you (and George) clearly know more about Klemperer than I do. My main experience of him was the televised concerts he gave (a complete Beethoven symphony cycle, if I remember correctly) on BBC2 when I was very young. He was certainly an impressive figure, with a very definite mystique (just how did his tremulous stick wagging communicate anything to the orchestra, I wondered), so those were pretty big cultural events by my standards then - but I had hardly any frame of reference.

As for Klemperer's Bruckner, as I'm sure you know his recording of number 6 was viewed as ideal by many critics - when there were no other widely available recordings of it. I dutifully bought it, but for a long time couldn't understand their enthusiasm... and then I heard other recordings (Wand, Solti, Norrington - quite different one to another) and the symphony clicked with me and has remained one of my favourites ever since. On that evidence, Klemperer's understanding of Bruckner (along with that of any conductor who finds the finale of the 8th long-winded) seems to me to be limited.

Klemperer has plenty of distinguished company, of course - Bernstein's Bruckner is terrible, and quite a few current conductors should, going by what I have heard from them, probably just leave Anton alone...

When Levi, the conductor who was asked to conduct the premiere of Bruckner's 8th in its original version, rejected it on the grounds that he simply could not understand it he took an entirely honourable course of action, even if it did cause poor Bruckner considerable distress. And the result: the most fruitful and necessary revision Bruckner ever undertook, which turned an already fine work into one of complete genius.

Bruckner has already done all the necessary compositional thinking in his 8th. If musically lesser mortals don't understand it, they should be like Levi and leave well alone. Please - no Bowdlerising Bruckner!

PS I cannot bring myself to listen to Knappertsbusch in Bruckner either - another beyond the Pale!
 
There is a lot of critical support online for Marshanp's view on Klemperer's late EMI Bruckner 8. Here is an amusing example in another musicweb review: - While I am in principle wholly against hacking bits out of works of art, I can only say that, conducted like this, what’s left is more than enough (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/May13/Bruckner_Symphonies_Klemperer_4042962.htm)

I've just given it a spin, hmmm. The two cuts are pretty jarring, the first one chops out a whole hunk of music and the second means that suddenly it arrives at the coda. Am going to have a think about this one!
 
Bruckner has already done all the necessary compositional thinking in his 8th. If musically lesser mortals don't understand it, they should be like Levi and leave well alone. Please - no Bowdlerising Bruckner!

If only Bruckner had taken that advice himself!

He continually tinkered and revised his symphonies after publication, leaving us with several editions of several of his works. And quite often the first versions are superior to the self-bowdlerized, wagnerized later revisions... Definitely true of the 1st and 3rd symphonies IMO.

And in which performing edition of the 8th are Bruckner's true compositional thoughts to be heard?
Haas or Novak, or some other? Which would he have preferred?
 
This could become a lengthy post, so I'll only say that Bruckner was careful to leave the manuscripts of his works to what is now the Austrian National Library, so that his first thoughts and revisions would be recorded for posterity.

There is no doubt that his second thoughts improved several of his symphonies: certainly numbers 3, 4 and 8. Pity about the third thoughts in number 3...

Somebody (I think it was Stephen Johnson) once said (I paraphrase) that Bruckner's music really only existed in his head; all written-down versions of it were provisional, because he was constantly striving to get his thoughts onto paper in their truest form. Sometimes successfully, sometimes less so. Not everybody can be a Bach or Mozart. That doesn't make what we have from Bruckner any less valuable. Composers with human frailties appeal to some audience members at least as much as those who seem to be taking dictation from a deity.
 
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This has gone a fascinating direction. So nice when that happens. Thanks.

I think it is true to say that most recreative artists - as we may describe performing musicians - have the odd blind spot, and sometimes they think they are right, but that does not prove the case with time giving the chance for a re-assessment.

Given that I know Bruckner's Symphonies from Four to Nine from quite a range of recordings, and that after nearly forty years of trying to understand or like them, I have failed, like Jazz, I'll leave it to those who find personal enjoyment from them to delve further.

On the specific performances that Klemperer left in recordings, I found that the Seventh was as fine as any other, but otherwise these things left me wondering.

If I may venture another heresy, it would be that Adrian Boult was often not much help in advocating Elgar. For Boult the problem is that he personally did not like Elgar's music, and doubted whether anything beyond the Enigma Variations would survive in the repertoire. To my mind Boult seems at his best in the minor and miniature pieces Elgar composed, such as the Wand Of Youth Suites, Polonia, Sanguine Fan ballet music, and other occasional music. Even his famous 1944 recording of the Second Symphony strikes me as cold, and though well recorded for its day, and reasonably well played, it does not compel me in the same way Elgar's own 1927 recording does. This is also a successful technical recording for its day, and the playing is here and there scruffy, but, as a reading of the music, the performance has immense expressive power. One senses a that the orchestra know they have to exceed themselves, and they play with remarkable guts and swing.

As for Klemperer having other blind spots, then I will say that I find his famous EMI recording of the Saint Matthew Passion quite impossible. I can see what he is driving at, and yet the performance has a lack of forward flow, so essential in a narrative like this. Leonhardt's DHM recording represents an ideal for me, and often is not faster than Klemperer, but does have the feeling of a special and continuous performance even though it must have taken ages to record and then assemble the finished recording.

On Marshamp's question about how an orchestra could play so together with such a shaky direction as Klemperer gave at least in old age, I think that is down to [at least in the case of the Philharmonia] the orchestra having a genuine affection for "The Old Man" as they called him. This was a two way street, and there is a rather endearing quote from a short speech made by Klemperer at a reception at the Dorchester for his seventy-fifth birthday, where he said that it was

"... all the orchestra. They played the music."

This following the usual esteem that had been released in praise of a long and brilliant career. That, he batted away so easily. Also his usually very kind way in rehearsal, where he would bellow over the players, "Good," or "very good'" and if something went wrong, He might say something like "Together? Maybe I give a better upbeat!" Or once when the whole thing broke down and he stopped them, and shouted, "Hoh! Stop!" ... a moment's silence, and he said quietly, "I think someone played some wrong notes there. We start at three before the Allegro again ...' Second time almost nothing wrong. Then there is that wonderful moment in rehearsing the Overture to Don Giovanni, where just before the Allegro [after the solemn dotted introduction] he stops the orchestra, and says to the first violins. "Now when you get to the F sharp I know that is difficult. When it comes again it is not, so let go to where it comes easy and we'll come back to the start and play it as if it were easy!" He understood his players, he understood a huge amount of music as well as anyone, and his orchestra knew it. They also knew that he admired them, though he was never long winded in praising them. One or two words only. And his criticism was just as short. such as, "That was not good. Now we do it better!"

As for whether Klemperer should have left Bruckner alone, well that is a question for some. Certainly he did as much as anyone to bring Bruckner before the public outside Germany. He thought his approach was good. He also would not play music by Elgar or Delius, or Vaughan Williams, or indeed a list of others, so given that he cared deeply and felt a responsibility to get it right for Bruckner perhaps one may say that he was not always successful. but in reality he was not a monster of egotism by any standard, though in his younger days in Berlin he could be as much of a tyrant as Toscanini, or anyone else. That was the way it was, and that side of him mellowed by the time he based himself in London [musically speaking] from 1954.

Sorry for the ramble, but this turned another direction altogether, and opened up a new vista for discussion.

Best wishes from George
 
"...Adrian Boult was often not much help in advocating Elgar. For Boult the problem is that he personally did not like Elgar's music, and doubted whether anything beyond the Enigma Variations would survive in the repertoire..."

:eek::eek::eek:

Forgive the emoticons, George... but where does this come from?

Boult made wonderful, wonderful recordings of Elgar - his Falstaff and 2nd symphony (either on Pye or the final ASDs) having, to my mind, never been bettered. His Gerontius is my favourite... and as for his recording of the orchestration of Bach BWV537 - move over, Stokowski, you have met your match, and then some...

I just cannot believe that Boult was in anything less than complete sympathy with Elgar's music. So do please tell us your source for this hard-to-accept statement.
 
I can look up the exact page chapter and verse, but it comes in Boult's own words from Michael Kennedy's

Adrian Boult

Published by Hamish Hamilton [1987] it is probably the best book about Boult, and quite a surprise in places. On the whole it is positive, but certainly does no pull its punches, including candid views of Boult's performances from Vaughan Williams, who far preferred Barbirolli. Well I far prefer Barbirolli in Elgar!
...

I have the big EMI Boult Elgar CD set, but have less than two hours of the music from it in iTunes. Some of the music contained is as yet not recorded otherwise, so it remains a necessary addition to the composer's own recordings for me, plus a few specials like the Heddle Nash Gerontius with Liverpool and Huddersfield forces. That is the Gerontius to improve on, and it still has not been eclipsed even by Barbirolli!

Best wishes from George
 
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Pondering the thought that Elgar's [or indeed anyone else's] orchestral transcriptions of Bach Organ music count as significant is perplexing. Maybe a century ago it was difficult to find Bach's organ music performed live unless you were a regular at Church Services and where the organist was enthusiastic for Bach. That is fairly much the case to this day, but nowadays we have almost an embarrassment of riches among the choices between a multitude of recordings of Bach's organ music played on almost every conceivable style of organ and in wide ranging interpretive styles.

All available as easily as going online and streaming or ordering CDs ...

I rather dislike Elgar's orchestral recomposition of Bach's 537, though I do have Boult's recording of it as well as Elgar's own. To my mind the arrangement entirely misses, even being almost exactly against, the expressive impression of the music as performed well on a pipe organ. This is one good example:


Clearly the impression is of built up tension, often quietly spoken, but devastating. The Elgar simply insists on shouting, quite apart from simply dire and [in places] unplayable part writing [which one might have hoped that Elgar knew better than to do] including the mad trumpet run right at the end of the Fugue.

Yes, it would have been an event to listen to early performacnes of the Elgar/Bach in the 1920s, as a first encounter for most, but nowadays, the very rarity of it in modern concert life does reflect its irrelevance in the modern era.

Best wishes from George
 
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