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older decent integrateds from the 80's / 90s

B

bourney

pfm Member
i have recently bought an old Incatech claymore, i have only had a few days with and it was to be a stand in until a can afford a new amp to go with my new speakers, but have to say i am pretty impressed with it...i am not sure what i would gain by spending 5 or 600 quid on a more modern integrated. i also had the pleasure of trying a Nait 2 not so long ago, as well as an ION obelisk 2 and also hearing an Onix 21 at a friends. All have been great and impressed me. I was also interested in the John Shearne Phase 2 but have not as yet heard one. These are all sort of 300 - 500 quid integrateds from that era

Taking all things into account where would amps like these fall in todays scheme of things. Are they equivelents to the Nait 5i, densen b110... or have things really moved on amplifier design/ manufacture wise to give us better value for money when buying new?
 
No real advances to speak of. Capacitors have got a little better (and smaller) so if servicing these old amps they can benefit.

The primary things to check are that the mechanics are ok - switches and pots, any electrolytic caps aren't going bad and that internal setting haven't drifted. Output stage bias can drift so this is always worth checking as it will alter performance.

On the value side, things are better but mainly because a lot of amps are built (whole or part) in China.

What you are discovering when you describe all of the above amps sounding great is that all amps do sound perfectly fine once they attain a minimum technical standard.
 
bourney said:
Taking all things into account where would amps like these fall in todays scheme of things. Are they equivelents to the Nait 5i, densen b110... or have things really moved on amplifier design/ manufacture wise to give us better value for money when buying new?
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It's a good question Steve - bearing in mind what stuff like the Claymore cost when it was new, one could work out what it would be now using an inflation calculator. In terms of sonics though, I'm utterly convinced that we haven't really progressed very far, if at all, in the last 30 years. We no doubt have in the digital domain (CD players/dacs obviously) but the other stuff? No, not in my experience.

One could say we've gone towards a more 'modern' sound - but what the hell does this mean? Does a saxophone sound any different to how it did 40 odd years ago?

I'd love to put the Claymore/Exposure Super XV or one of the big old Magnum integrateds up against something like a Supernait.
 
i think the Claymore was around £350 in 1984 not sure about Nait 2s and IONs etc. I'd like to hear an older Exposure integrated.

i was thinkng about the Nait xs TBH. not yet, but maybe early next year.
 
Solid state amplifier design hasn't really changed since the 1970's though better components have become available.

There isn't any major improvement of current mid market ger over that of 20 years ago.
 
Robert said:
The primary things to check are that the mechanics are ok - switches and pots, any electrolytic caps aren't going bad and that internal setting haven't drifted. Output stage bias can drift so this is always worth checking as it will alter performance.
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Robert, do you have a simple guide for checking DC offset at the speaker outputs ? What sort of voltage is acceptable ? With or without speakers connected ? Thanks in advance
 
Sean, no speakers connected, black probe into black speaker output connector, red into red. 50mV or less, though up to 100mV acceptable I believe.

That's not the output stage bias though.
 
I'd add my opinion that there ar no massive improvements. There have been no fundamental changes in technology, really. The circuits are still based on the same topologies that were established at the dawn of transistor time, and while there have been improvements in things like caps and op amps I haven't seen any huge developments, digital aside. Things like cars have come a lot further - fuel injection, electronic ignition and ECUs have transformed their performance and efficiency, but the hifi amp is a bit like the disc brake - other than adding ABS those from 30 years ago aren't significantly different from those of today, even if friction materials have moved on a bit.
 
bourney said:
i think the Claymore was around £350 in 1984 not sure about Nait 2s and IONs etc. I'd like to hear an older Exposure integrated.
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£350 in 1984 would be approx £870 now.

I paid £325 (I think!) for my new CB Nait 2 in (again, I think!) 1988 which would be £725 now.
 
A bit more, I would have thought? I'm not an RPI calculator but I remember a pint of beer in central London got to £1 in '85, and a gallon of petrol in 83-84 topped the pound for the first time. Given that the beer is now between £3 and £4 and the petrol about £6, figures over £1000 would seem reasonable.

Electronics is odd though, a VCR was a hill of money in '85, while a modern DVD is yours for the price of a round of drinks.
 
Trouble is Steve, fuel and booze has 'other-worldly' duty added to it. :(

Edit: I use this site quite a lot. Makes for interesting reading - of course it can't account for everything, nor be faultlessly accurate but it's fun to use. :)
 
I found that you have to spend quite a lot to upgrade from an Onix 21. In the Naim ladder I don't believe you get a decent step up until the 152/155, which are really good (and everyone seems to think are substantially better than their previous entry level pre/powers). Other than that I heard the new Creek Destiny 2 and thought that sounded pretty damn good. I've done A/B comparison between the Onix and the more recent bargain Creeks (Evolution) and much preferred the Onix.
 
Have to say I preferred my OA21 to the claymore and obelisk 3 I had. All imho of course. The onix is a tighter, leaner sound and needs some vol to get pumping, the claymore a richer thicker but less "accurate" sound to my ears. Obelisk somewhere in the middle. Once the bias was properly setup on the onix the dynamics were superb. Would love to get my hands on an OA601 to have a play with.
 
I had the John Shearne Phase 2. To my ears, it was the best integrated of its class (the sort of thing you're describing here, i.e., reasonably modern 30-70 watt integrated amps) that I ever tried in my system, and that includes things like Nait 3, Onix OA21, Rega Mira, Primare, a few others. Oh, there was another oddball that was really nice as well - Newtonia Solis. Terrific thing.
 
Hi,

I still have a Linn Majik-I with the MM/MC phono stage.

Excellent little integrated amp for what it does, works well with Linn Kans.

Even has a good headphone amp included.

Worth a punt if you are ever looking for a basic second system integrated amp, or even to have hooked up to your TV driving a pair of speakers.

Cheers

John
 
James Evans said:
John Shearne, exposure and sonneteer I'd love to have a play with too. Buy this Steve and then lend it to me with your harbeths..

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sonneteer-Cam..._HomeAudioHiFi_Amplifiers&hash=item2a0bb934e6
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That Sonneteer looks like a real tank, and very Densen in style (and then Densen were influenced by Onix). Its the visual aesthetics of these old brands that I love too.

Its not giving much away though - would be interest to know more about these.
 
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Elephantears said:
That Sonneteer looks like a real tank, and very Densen in style (and then Densen were influenced by Onix). Its the visual aesthetics of these old brands that I love too.

Its not giving much away though - would be interest to know more about these.
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Looks very sweet - simple, clean, solid-looking. Folk who own Sonneteer seem to swear by them - wonder if this would be worth a punt, just for the hell of it?
 
Gromit said:
Looks very sweet - simple, clean, solid-looking. Folk who own Sonneteer seem to swear by them - wonder if this would be worth a punt, just for the hell of it?
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Yes, I didn't realize until I just checked that they are in current production, and since they are £800 new this is a good deal. I won't be tempted myself, because I've got spare Onix 21's for second systems, but I'd love to hear it. Slight worries about oomph, though, since its only 33W (about the same as an old Creek 4140).
 
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