Old Potterton boiler down. Advice etc. welcomed.

[Mike Reed]

if it doesn't, heating engineer required unless you fancy living dangerously

Just living as an octogenarian is living dangerously, Ian; i keep being hit by tennis balls 'cos I can't get out of the way quick enough.

Check the PCB for damage.

Could be just electronics, dry joints maybe on the pcb or a burned out earth bracket

I'd be surprised if a 35+ year old gas boiler had any PCBs in it.

'Tis only a little one but it does have a simple one; at least, I assume that's the one with mains connections and fuse, as I can't see another.Looks okay to me but I'll check the state of the earth connection.

The case seal is very important on those as they’re positive pressure. There was a safety bulletin from gas safe some years ago. Don’t remove the case.

Yes, I've read a few warnings on Google, but they talk about seals (asbestos even (unlikely)), but my plumber used to remove this in a service and there are 4 bolts holding the cover, with no obvious signs that it's other than just a steel cosmetic cover; it's not airtight to the heat exch. and just slots in, certainly not creating a seal of any kind. I had it off to check things, but have now put it back. Actually operating the boiler with the cover off may be questionable but my Netaheat doesn't fire up !

Thanks for the help, hints and advice, folks, but I got an email from my plumber, on his way to Bulgaria, this evening saying he doesn't install boilers any more (back issues) and to phone a previous employee (highly thought of by me at the time) who now works for a larger local company. I shall do that tomorrow, as it's pointless waiting 11 days + just to have my plumber check it out and then initiate an installation.

As someone who hung on to a 35 y/o Potterton til the bitter end I would actually agree with this. When I did finally and begrudgingly cave in, I was genuinely amazed at how much more efficient modern (Worcester in our case) boilers are, and with gas prices only going in one direction

I had guessed this would be the case as I've been aware that the whole c/h system in nowhere as efficient as it was, esp. at the furthest end of the house, so it's good to hear your story. It's time and I'm happy to spend the money but would have liked to keep the old girl going until the warmer months, for many obv. reasons.

Hopefully, I'll be told the age of my boiler, as there's no identifying label but it has to be eighties, I'd've thought.

 

[Amormusic]

Not sure if it still exists. Google the Sedbuk database which has majority of boilers manufactured and will tell you the age of yours.

Also will tell you the efficiency, which based on its age will be pants.

As said above, buy a new one. Your wallet will thank you.

 

[sean99]

As said above, buy a new one. Your wallet will thank you.

I think that depends on situation. If your annual gas bill for heating is £1500 and you go from an 80% efficient to a 95% efficient boiler you'll save about £240 a year, and be looking at, maybe a 10 year break even.
It really depends on the size of your annual bill (which is down to size of house, and thermostat preference).

 

[Vinny]

At that age you should consider replacement of the system as newer ones are highly efficient by comparison.

With fuel costs as they are it might save you a couple of quid longer term.

If you do the sums, replacing a boiler never pays for itself, unless the existing one is dud and completely beyond repair. Not helped by the fact that modern boilers seldom last beyond 15 years or so.

 

[Mike Reed]

It really depends on the size of your annual bill

If you do the sums, replacing a boiler never pays for itself, unless the existing one is dud and completely beyond repair.

I agree, though my annual total energy bill was always way less than a grand (until last October, that is !) and gas probably constituted only 3/5 of that at most However, the whole house system needs flushing + TRVs etc. and if the Potterton needs parts (if available) over, say, a couple of hundred + fitting, I'll go new boiler. Even a 15 year life-span will see me out, no doubt, and be far more efficient at its job, financially and in effectiveness. The pump is over 20 y/o. too, and extra rad's have been fitted. Technician coming Monday aft. and I'll know then.

It's never put a foot wrong in 20 years (and quite some time before, probably) so really doesn't owe us anything. Big cylinder is 18 y.o. (with a slight leak) and the gravity-fed rad. in the bathroom is ancient and looks it ! So, not just the boiler but a total refurb.possible.

 

[Mike Reed]

Not sure if it still exists. Google the Sedbuk database which has majority of boilers manufactured and will tell you the age of yours.

Ta. Did that and with various Sedbuck entries, but only able to ascertain that the mark one Netaheat came out in '75, so guess mine is eighties.

Update: plumber came last evening and got the pilot light going by hitting the enclosed PCB. However, it appears that my timer is directly connected to the mains plug/socket and thereby sends juice to the boiler and pump when operated. Makes sense. I had rewired the boiler directly, which is why the timer was inoperative. The boiler now heats the water (and so much better than the immersion) and the gravity-fed bathroom rad., so progress but no house heating.

I now need to try to get the embedded timer out somehow (not obv. to the plumber, even) to investigate the wiring, as that must have been the initial failure. He is coming back to me with a quote for replacement boiler and cylinder etc. May lose my gravity-fed rad., though (as I expected).

Hoped to get the htg. part up and running to tide us over as the novelty of a variably cold house and generally sub 15 degree areas/rooms has long worn off after 9 days.

 

[misterdog]

he recommended Worcester Bosch.

My friend and his engineer (lecturer at college), my self (I have 2) and my heating engineer all recommend Ideal boilers.

the 2 I have are 9 years old, never been touched.

Built like a tank, low parts count and so simple to strip down even I can do it. The user manual even has a full workshop/fault finding guide in it.

I had a W.Bosch before.

 

[mandryka]

I agree, though my annual total energy bill was always way less than a grand (until last October, that is !) and gas probably constituted only 3/5 of that at most However, the whole house system needs flushing + TRVs etc. and if the Potterton needs parts (if available) over, say, a couple of hundred + fitting, I'll go new boiler. Even a 15 year life-span will see me out, no doubt, and be far more efficient at its job, financially and in effectiveness. The pump is over 20 y/o. too, and extra rad's have been fitted. Technician coming Monday aft. and I'll know then.

It's never put a foot wrong in 20 years (and quite some time before, probably) so really doesn't owe us anything. Big cylinder is 18 y.o. (with a slight leak) and the gravity-fed rad. in the bathroom is ancient and looks it ! So, not just the boiler but a total refurb.possible.

I was in exactly the same position as you until May 2021. 25 year old Potterton, all the central heating people told me to keep it as long as possible, never a problem with it.

Then in 2021 I got it serviced. The flue went up into the chimney and the guy who serviced it said the flue pipe was corroded and that it was impossible to replace. The boiler was absolutely fine -- not the flue. I may have been ripped off, I don't know, but I ended up getting a new condensing boiler.

 

[Mike Reed]

My friend and his engineer (lecturer at college), my self (I have 2) and my heating engineer all recommend Ideal boilers.

The young plumber, who still works in collaboration with but not for my plumber of 11 years also recommend Ideal; also Vaillant,which I know to be good as one was in the flat I've just sold. However, they are the makes they are agents for. I had an Ideal combi put into another flat just months ago; amazed it's so small compared to the one (Potterton Gold) put in Dec. 2011.

The young man didn't think much of Worcester Bosch, mainly because they're difficult to work on and their back-up service is poor.

I was in exactly the same position as you until May 2021. 25 year old Potterton, all the central heating people told me to keep it as long as possible, never a problem with it.

Then in 2021 I got it serviced. The flue went up into the chimney i

Mine goes out through the wall. Think mine is more like 30+ y.o. I've now got it working as it should and am loth to replace it yet, unless another fault occurs (this one sorted by a knock on the pcb !). He's preparing a quote for a complete system (incl. new h/w cistern; 18 y.o. in a hard water area) as my wife really doesn't want the hassles of another winter anxiety (which, to be fair, I have each year from about October, increasing as the winter gets into cold snaps).

I feel in a strange position as haven't told the plumber yet, but I guess he'll just charge me for his time if I delay any installation.

 

[twotone]

Sounds like the Gas valve is faulty Mike if the boiler’s trying to ignite and the fan’s running you can try to blow gently into the silicone tubes to operate the APS but in no circumstances open the boiler ie remove the combustion cover cause that’s a positive pressure boiler it blows combustion products out of the boiler flu ergo if the case seal is dodgy it will blow combustion products into the room the case seal needs to be checked by someone when the boiler’s working properly by someone who knows what they’re doing.

 

[mandryka]

The young plumber, who still works in collaboration with but not for my plumber of 11 years also recommend Ideal; also Vaillant,which I know to be good as one was in the flat I've just sold. However, they are the makes they are agents for. I had an Ideal combi put into another flat just months ago; amazed it's so small compared to the one (Potterton Gold) put in Dec. 2011.

The young man didn't think much of Worcester Bosch, mainly because they're difficult to work on and their back-up service is poor.



Mine goes out through the wall. Think mine is more like 30+ y.o. I've now got it working as it should and am loth to replace it yet, unless another fault occurs (this one sorted by a knock on the pcb !). He's preparing a quote for a complete system (incl. new h/w cistern; 18 y.o. in a hard water area) as my wife really doesn't want the hassles of another winter anxiety (which, to be fair, I have each year from about October, increasing as the winter gets into cold snaps).

I feel in a strange position as haven't told the plumber yet, but I guess he'll just charge me for his time if I delay any installation.

I would get more than one quote for a boiler. I had two. One for about £3,500 and one for about £2,500. The one for £2,500 came with a 12 year guarantee, the one for £3,500 came with an 8 year guarantee (it’s because if the “level” of engineer who does the installation - identical boilers etc.)

The new one is smaller, so easier to hide (I hide it with a wine rack!) It makes a different noise, probably quieter. I hate the vapour trail of waste gas which comes out, but I’ve learned to live with It. I haven’t noticed that I’m saving money - but maybe I’ve just not noticed.

 

[twotone]

Mike Worcester Bosch might be a lot of things and I agree with the young plumber re difficult boilers to work on but their customer service is the best in the industry as is their technical support and parts prices are probably the lowest in the industry.

I’m not their biggest fan but credit where it’s due.

Worcester Bosch boilers are probably the only boilers that customers actually know about it’s like everyone knowing that Mercedes or Meile make the best cars/domestic appliances in short their boilers are aspirational.

 

[Richard Lines]

Good Morning All,

I'm not convinced that a new boiler can't pay for itself personally............

If it comes to pass that your boiler does need replacing then look towards one which can modulate from near zero output to maximum, cheaper boilers will not modulate below about 1.7kW.

This subject has come up on here before but I will still keep banging the drum. Make sure the new boiler is being operated such that it does actually condense, this will reduce gas consumption and improve your payback time. Personally I find it difficult to believe people get a condensing boiler and then don't operate it correctly or believe some rubbish the firm that fitted it told them or by the person doing the servicing.

How's it go - if all else fails read the manual..........

Regards

Richard

 

[Mike Reed]

Sounds like the Gas valve is faulty Mike if the boiler’s trying to ignite and the fan’s running

Thanks Tony, but it seems it was the enclose pcb. He tapped it a couple of times and the pilot light appeared. He actually had the cover off at the time and it was clear that the flames were diminished (so needed for pressure) There's no seal around this. He briefly opened the heat-exch. cover as well but this would be normal part of servicing, I guess.

My main plumber thought it might be the gas valve as well. I removed the Randall timer box cover to check continuity, and reset the pcb input leads and so far, all works as it should. What it was in the enclosed pcb is anyone's guess but obv. the circuit introducing the pilot light was obstructed.

Worcester Bosch boilers are probably the only boilers that customers actually know about

Possibly because of their saturation advertising some while back.

 

[Mike Reed]

I'm not convinced that a new boiler can't pay for itself personally......

Richard, being a sceptic, I probably agree that the savings incurred by fitting a new boiler with commensurate updating/flushing etc. will take so long to justify, if at all, that it's not a major factor in jettisoning a good and (previously) reliable but old friend. However, various rad. additions over the years prob. make it underpowered anyway, although it's never used at more than 3.5/5 on the boiler stat. Also, the h/w cylinder is 18+ years old and has a small leak (hard water area). Maybe good time for a complete refurb this summer/autumn.

It's tempting to hang on and hang on, but that apprehension from October to, say, March as to whether sth will go wrong is not easy to live with as we both age. Having lived with electric heaters and crappy, inefficient immersion for 10 days, I'm not crazy about repeating the event. Luckily, it hasn't been a cold January and it would have been much worse in the colder December when plumbers weren't available.

 

[twotone]

Thanks Tony, but it seems it was the enclose pcb. He tapped it a couple of times and the pilot light appeared. He actually had the cover off at the time and it was clear that the flames were diminished (so needed for pressure) There's no seal around this. He briefly opened the heat-exch. cover as well but this would be normal part of servicing, I guess.

My main plumber thought it might be the gas valve as well. I removed the Randall timer box cover to check continuity, and reset the pcb input leads and so far, all works as it should. What it was in the enclosed pcb is anyone's guess but obv. the circuit introducing the pilot light was obstructed.

Think you can still get PCBs for these boilers Mike or repair it yourself if you're good with a soldering iron, probably a dry joint as @elamoo said above there's plenty of places on Ebay doing reconditioned boards, think I might have a faulty one I can send you if you send me a photo of the one in the boiler.

Definitely a positive pressure boiler Mike so whoever was working on it with the cover off should have checked the boiler wasn't leaking POC after putting the case back on in any event buy yourself a CO alarm.


Check out appendix one (in this link below which is a technical bulletin from gas safe) for the list of Potterton boilers with positive pressure cases.

https://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/m...s-on-rs-positive-pressure-appliance-cases.pdf

 

[Mike Reed]

in any event buy yourself a CO alarm.

Have got, Tony. It was a late aft. visit to help me out as my plumber is away and he has refused payment ('add it to next bill'). No, I've every faith in him. Not sure I'd be up to soldering on a pcb. box now as I have a hell of a job with simple ?/Cs or whatever (eyesight). Thanks for the link but I read that in my concentrated read-up of my Potterton. What i can't figure, though, is WHAT seals? The case slots well into its recesses and bolts tightly top & bottom but there's no seal, and a.f.a.I can see, no provision for one.

 

[twotone]

Have got, Tony. It was a late aft. visit to help me out as my plumber is away and he has refused payment ('add it to next bill'). No, I've every faith in him. Not sure I'd be up to soldering on a pcb. box now as I have a hell of a job with simple ?/Cs or whatever (eyesight). Thanks for the link but I read that in my concentrated read-up of my Potterton. What i can't figure, though, is WHAT seals? The case slots well into its recesses and bolts tightly top & bottom but there's no seal, and a.f.a.I can see, no provision for one.

Been a long time since I've been at a Netaheat Mike, I look after a Potterton Profile (not Netaheat Profile) which I installed around 1995 and it's still going strong and has rarely been serviced or breaks down, actually thinking about it's never been serviced.


I go to another one about the same age but the flu in that one has rotted the owner has known this for about five years and hasn't done a thing about it despite me sending him a quote to replace it but he's moving next month so it will likely be ripped out by the new owners.

Regarding seals then if you look at the link there's none available for any of the Netaheats but you can usually use an aftermarket seal, there may have been a seal in your boiler (I had a quick look at the manual and could see a parts list) but if the flu blocks or rots then you're in trouble as combustion products will be blown back into the room especially if there isn't a seal but your plumber should have checked that the boiler was saf ref that technical bulletin (above) those old positive pressure boilers are killers which is why boilers now are negative pressure ie they suck the products out of the boiler and if the seals are faulty then they just suck air into the boiler from the room ergo no danger however those old Netaheat boiler's back panels can rot and products can be blown into the room.

Personally at it's age I'd replace it if I were you, I presume that it's your own boiler and not in a rental property?

 

[Aethelist]

Can't add any advice, but I would recommend Worcester Bosch. We've had our HighFlow 440 boiler since 2005 and it's still going strong.

It developed a leak recently so I rang Worcester and they came the next day to fix it. All done under their one off /fixed fee callout. Been 3 years since they last had to be called out (heat exchanger went)

We don't bother with an annual service anymore, we just wait until it breaks.

 

[mandryka]

Good Morning All,

I'm not convinced that a new boiler can't pay for itself personally............

If it comes to pass that your boiler does need replacing then look towards one which can modulate from near zero output to maximum, cheaper boilers will not modulate below about 1.7kW.

This subject has come up on here before but I will still keep banging the drum. Make sure the new boiler is being operated such that it does actually condense, this will reduce gas consumption and improve your payback time. Personally I find it difficult to believe people get a condensing boiler and then don't operate it correctly or believe some rubbish the firm that fitted told them or by the person doing the servicing.

How's it go - if all else fails read the manual..........

Regards

Richard

Don't they check whether it's condensing properly when they service it?