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Old hifi systems with great sounding drum kit cymbals

Discussion in 'audio' started by Guitarist 28, Jan 4, 2022.

  1. Old Shatterhand

    Old Shatterhand pfm Member

    Even that is totally impossible, like I said before.

    That there is no "right" reference. Someone said that something is the reference but it is completely artificial because you can't compare a display/foto to a person/thing in nature. It is the same thing as live music versus hifi 100% artificial.

    I googled it (I didn't know the term). Sure I know what it is.
     
  2. tuga

    tuga Legal Alien

    Your English is perfect but your understanding of the tech is poor.
     
  3. Old Shatterhand

    Old Shatterhand pfm Member

    I totally understand so I have no technical understanding problem and what you are claiming but my view is different.
     
  4. tuga

    tuga Legal Alien

    I think we at least agree that the ultimate goal of a home stereo system is to provide listening enjoyment. :)
     
    Old Shatterhand likes this.
  5. the caretaker

    the caretaker pfm Member

    Off topic slightly..when I tune my ukulele with a tuning fork it sounds a lot better than when I tune it using a tuner? It takes longer but definitely worth the effort! It's odd as you would think a tuner would be more accurate than by ear? Same with hifi too I guess, might measure great but sound grot? The beauty of music lies in the ear of the beholder..
     
  6. the caretaker

    the caretaker pfm Member

    On one of my music systems I played radiohead kid a and it sounded dark and menacing yet on another system it sounded quite different? I have no idea which is the correct sound? If there is such a thing as a correct sound?
     
  7. Del monaco

    Del monaco Del Monaco

    It’s peculiar.I was thinking about a recent thread about measurements and also the work done on ASR. When I’ve listened to gear where measurements were a BIG selling point I often find that the sound is almost too tight and lifeless. I remember MF gear extolling the amazingly low jitter levels etc. I sort of admire it but dislike it at same time. Yet I really like a lot of vintage gear. And some of that gear would probably be kicked out by ASR. Maybe I like hash, noise and all that ringing!
     
    RoA likes this.
  8. tuga

    tuga Legal Alien

    I think that it probably depends on the electronic tuner, some are more surely accurate than others.
    Maybe you could try a few different models at a store.
    I had an app that I used to tune my son's guitar and it seemed to allow for a very wide margin of error; it was rubbish.

    I agree that sounding good is subjective and always recommend that people listen before they buy. It depends on taste but also other factors lke the acoustics of the room or the quality of the recordings one listens to. I listen mainly to classical music, which is generally very well recorded, produced and mastered, so I don't need equipment which masks flaws like creechy highs or "enhance" the perceived dynamics from a compressed mastering...
     
  9. tuga

    tuga Legal Alien

    The correct sound is that which results from the most accurate or highest possible fidelity reproduction of the signal.

    The best sound is that which pleases you the most, that will produce the most intense listening experience (or whatever is importat to you).

    You may have no idea which is the correct sound for one or a combination of four reasons: you have no reference of correct sound, you cannot interpret measurements and correlate them with listening, you are using recordings which are not fit for assessing correctness.

    If I had two systems I would like them to sound as similar as possible. Maybe others would rather have different flavours, perhaps for reproducing different types of music or for when they're in different moods. For me the system is a tool, no different than a screwdriver or a hair dryer. My ideal system would be so correct that I would listen only to the transduced signal, but I understand that due to the imperfect nature of stereo recordings some people feel the need for equipment which "enhances" the listening experience. Those people should not get an accurate system which produces correct sound.
     
  10. tuga

    tuga Legal Alien

    You are not alone and there are several reasons for why this happens.
    For one us audiophiles are middle aged and older and grew up listening to a particular presentation which has a reasonable level of distortion(s).
    Also, depending on the types of music, some recordings are either overly "dry" (they lack reverb and ambience) or bright or overly compressed, etc. and a more "tailored" and forginving system will make them less harsh or more compeling to listen to.
    And finally there's personal preference, something which ASR seems to be acknowledging, even though it has been discussed by scholars(psychoacoustics) for quite some time now...
     
  11. Del monaco

    Del monaco Del Monaco

    Are the listeners who prefer lower measurement younger that us oldies? Or did they change their tastes over time? I suppose it’s like playing the music your parents used to play. My classical music tastes are still with older orchestras and conductors. How much of this is a nostalgia thing?
     
  12. the caretaker

    the caretaker pfm Member

    I own a few ukes and a few tuners too and they all tune the instrument but when you use a tuning fork and tune the instrument relative to itself then it sounds so much better!
     
    tuga likes this.
  13. tuga

    tuga Legal Alien

    I don't know. There ano no statistics available. ASR is quirky in that you will see people who embrace the objective approach in an irrational way, not because they can intrepret measurements or correlate them with what they hear but probably because their natural mindset is more inclined to a brainy instead of a gutty approach; they use panthers and SINAD just like subjectivists use magazine reviews and star ratings, it's not a better approach. Computer Audiophile, now called Audiophile Style, has people of all ages so I would suggest that just as there'll be those who prefer analogue over digital and vice-versa of all ages, the same is probably true for a more rational vs a more emotional and expereimental approach. I think we can observe that here at PFM.

    Audiophilia is about the love of sound and gear. We hover between enjoying music and looking for a particular sonic presentation. The latter, I believe, is not static, it changes with time. And auditory memory is notably (scientifically) poor, so our recollection of a particular good-sounding system or room from the past would probably not match reality were we to evalate that sound with our current expectations.

    I think that a preference for euphony or accuracy is probably a mix of mostly internal but also external factors like our upbringing, our musical experience and preferences...

    There's an interesting old piece presented by Henning Møller (Brüel & Kjær) at the 59th AES Convention in 1978 which addresses some of the issues we're discussing. Here's a little taster:

    Some people operate primarily in the "Subjective domain". Studio people, musicians, Hi-Fi fans etc. use a lot of words. Often it has similarities to religious sects where only the initiated themselves understand the words.

    Other people operate primarily in the "Objective domain". They measure with extreme accuracy - for instance, 0,001% harmonic distortion at 1 kHz - and they insist that because of that the Hi-Fi system must be good. Others claim that because the system is phase compensated it is tremendous, while others maintain that because it is TIM-free it must be the best.

    Really, both groups of people are talking about the same thing, but from different points of view. Nevertheless there is often open warfare between the "subjective people" and the "objective people". People that really have been listening intensively for years often say that measurements are absolutely useless because they judge from the few old-fashioned measurements they might know. And often the so-called objective engineers say that, for instance, reviewers are crazy because they judge contrary to the measurements.

    https://www.linkwitzlab.com/multidimensionalaudio.pdf
     
    gustav_errata, Del monaco and Mr Pig like this.
  14. S-Man

    S-Man Kinkless Tetrode Admirer

    Sounds dark and dismal on every system I've heard (before I rush to change the music), so your other system seems to be wrong. ;)
     
  15. the caretaker

    the caretaker pfm Member

    Lol...
     
  16. S-Man

    S-Man Kinkless Tetrode Admirer

    I wonder if Radiohead would be a bit more lively if played on a eukele:




    Seems like the answer is "no"
     
    the caretaker likes this.
  17. Mr Pig

    Mr Pig ^'- -'^

    Nope, still terrible.
     
  18. the caretaker

    the caretaker pfm Member

    not the best..I think a George Formby style might be more chirpy? If radiohead can be chirpy? I saw a photo of his new band ' smile ' not a smile in sight...metal bands seem to scowl..pop groups grin..Radiohead just look fed up..( should admit there are some fake plastic plants at work and I have watered them on the odd occasion! Lol )
     
    S-Man and Mr Pig like this.
  19. the caretaker

    the caretaker pfm Member

    Needs more angst...not feeling the angst...think the anorak spoils the effect..or the nerdy glasses...more angst please
     
  20. Guitarist 28

    Guitarist 28 Active Member

    Hi All,
    I'm now amazed! I have set up the old Mission 770s speakers that had new bass drivers and tweeters units fitted but NOT to the original spec., and I received help in making sure that the crossover setup was properly balanced. I have just tried them for the first time today and they are excellent. Yes, the drum kit cymbals are back again and sound absolutely tremendous. Yet again to determine this I listened to the Billy Cobham 'Spectrum' CD that I have. The A&R A60 is working well with these speakers, very neutral and well balanced and I would say that it could be a bit more defined BUT considering the age of the individual units that I have and how much I paid for them, I cannot complain at all.
    The only down side is that these speakers are massive and look huge in a small room. Perhaps looking to the future and now that I have the overall sound I am seeking I could search for small speakers that can deliver the same as these - any thoughts and suggestions would be most welcome.

    Best Regards

    Rob
     

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