Oh Britain, what have you done (part ∞+23)?

[eternumviti]

I'm sorry, EV, but this is mostly bluster. The 'EU ideological dogma' you speak of seems to me to be mostly 'UK political spin to deflect the blame elsewhere'. For two generations, UK politicians have been content to take the credit in the good times, and blame the EU when things go wrong. That, above all else, is why we are where we are now. The general voting public has little to no idea of the 'EU ideological dogma' you allude to. The most persistent ideological dogma is the belief that the UK is capable of greatness on its own, and leaving the EU will return us to the heyday of the Empire.

Here we go again. It's not "EU ideological dogma" it's the rules that we bloody wrote. We then decide that we need a special deal, outside the rules. We want free movement of what we want but to stop that which we don't. We want the benefits and not the costs. Well, sorry but no. That's not ideological dogma, that's following your principles, the principles on which you are founded.

What you call 'ideological dogma' is just the EU protecting itself.

I suspect you'd also call the UK wanting NI to remain part of the UK as 'ideological dogma' if you were on the other side of the argument. I mean, if only the UK would only get over this unreasonable ideological position of a 'united kingdom' we could sort Brexit out easily.

May's WA is the best we could get with the UK red lines. You can't see it because of your blind hatred for the EU institutions.

In that, you are just like the ERG and the Brexit company.

Stephen

...von der Leyden will send her wolf packs into the North Atlantic to sink any British merchantmen they find carrying much needed cargoes of cholo-chicken to the starving masses on Brexit Island. Bloodied but unbowed, we’ll stand against this Franco-German hegemony. Admiral Dönitz was unavailable for comment.

EU Ideological dogma: not thinking that JRM's money must have more rights than their citizens. How utterly insensitive of them.

Do you all wish for the UK to be subsumed into a United States of Europa, with power concentrated and centralised into the Brussels' institutions, and the former nations reduced to regional provinces?

 

[stevec67]

No, nor would we be if we remained. You however voted for the country to be f*ed. Well done. It's working.

 

[stephen bennett]

Do you all wish for the UK to be subsumed into a United States of Europa, with power concentrated and centralised into the Brussels' institutions, and the former nations reduced to regional provinces?

I give up. It's no use talking to a conspiracy theorist. You could instead address the questions asked. I'd especially like to get an answer to mine on what you expected the outcome of your vote to actually be. In reality. Achievable. Not fantasy. Y

You say the EU is 'intractable' but seem surprised when they have a position they will not deviate from. as, apparently, do we.

In the same way that being against the death penalty does not make you 'for' murder, defending the EU's stance against unreasonable and, frankly, absurd statements and expectations does not mean you want to marry Jean-Claude Juncker.

I suggest you book a one-way flight on a Mars mission. I mean, the Earth could be destroyed by an asteroid any day now. Better safe than sorry.

Stephen

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Do you all wish for the UK to be subsumed into a United States of Europa, with power concentrated and centralised into the Brussels' institutions, and the former nations reduced to regional provinces?

I don't wish for it, no, but frankly it's preferable to what we currently face. And it is infinitely to be preferred to a similar situation but under the USA, Russia or China, which looks like a possibility from where I'm standing.

 

[gingermrkettle]

Do you all wish for the UK to be subsumed into a United States of Europa, with power concentrated and centralised into the Brussels' institutions, and the former nations reduced to regional provinces?

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say that has come from reading the Express rather than the Mail. Just remember that the EU won't stop the sale of commemorative Diana plates and you should still be fine.

Meanwhile in the real world, you might be surprised about the role of regional provinces in other European countries and the powers they have. Us complaining about centralisation is frankly laughable.

 

[eternumviti]

I give up. It's no use talking to a conspiracy theorist. You could instead address the questions, especially mine on what you expected the outcome of your vote to be.

I answered it way back at the biginning of this thread, in 2016, and probably several times since.

I expected the UK to remain within some of the EU institutions, to continue to pay into specific projects and EU competences, and I expected freedom of movement to effectively continue but fall within the competence of the UK. I envisaged the possibility of there being a body independent of the ECJ on which both the UK and the EU would sit and settle agreements on external trade and standards, and I hoped that the two parties would be able to settle a comprehensive trade deal within a timeframe of around 5 years.

Do you want there to be a Europa?

 

[gingermrkettle]

Membership of institutions means accepting their rules of you are not on the body that determines them (welcome back the old friend of the golf club analogy) and that means the ECJ.

Freedom of movement for EU citizens which is not within EU control is not a freedom but a UK concession. As has been shown, the UK cannot guarantee a "no idiot government" policy, no sensible European government would buy that.

Independent body to oversee trade policy? Whoosh, there goes EU sovereignty in a way you wouldn't want for us.

Upshot: only one horn present in animal representation.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

I expected the UK to remain within some of the EU institutions, to continue to pay into specific projects and EU competences, and I expected freedom of movement to effectively continue but fall within the competence of the UK. <snip>

Do you want there to be a Europa?

The bolded bit is a bit ambitious of you, in light of what you regularly accuse the EU of. How, given your views on its hegemonistic tendencies, did you imagine this might be brought about?

As to 'Europa', well yes, actually. The more we have bigger blocs, the more we move towards a 'one world' outlook when those blocs themselves merge into one. That may be generations from now, but so long as we cling to arbitrary notions of 'states' we resist the idea that we are citizens of the world, with a common cause and shared interests.

 

[eternumviti]

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say that has come from reading the Express rather than the Mail. Just remember that the EU won't stop the sale of commemorative Diana plates and you should still be fine.

Meanwhile in the real world, you might be surprised about the role of regional provinces in other European countries and the powers they have. Us complaining about centralisation is frankly laughable.

I don't read either the Express or the Mail.

You presumably refer to the Belgian parish councils that by some quirk can bring the EU machine grinding to a halt. I know, amazing.

 

[eternumviti]

The bolded bit is a bit ambitious of you, in light of what you regularly accuse the EU of. How, given your views on its hegemonistic tendencies, did you imagine this might be brought about?

Compromise.

I know. Naive of me.

 

[stephen bennett]

I answered it way back at the biginning of this thread, in 2016, and probably several times since.

I expected the UK to remain within some of the EU institutions, to continue to pay into specific projects and EU competences, and I expected freedom of movement to effectively continue but fall within the competence of the UK. I envisaged the possibility of there being a body independent of the ECJ on which both the UK and the EU would sit and settle agreements on external trade and standards, and I hoped that the two parties would be able to settle a comprehensive trade deal within a timeframe of around 5 years.

I thought a post-3 year update might be interesting.

So your personal leave (so may types!) was based on unrealistic expectations and a lack of understanding on the EU's structures and institutions.

I assume you have more of a grasp now?

Do you want there to be a Europa?

Ask me when there is any realistic chance of that happening. Like a hit album, life's too short to worry about the something that's unlikely to happen.

Stephen

 

[stephen bennett]

Compromise.

I know. Naive of me.

This is an interesting point. Compromise is at the heart of the EU—which can make it a frustrating institution sometimes.

But why should this extend to members outside the EU?

Stephen

 

[Bob McC]

Do you all wish for the UK to be subsumed into a United States of Europa, with power concentrated and centralised into the Brussels' institutions, and the former nations reduced to regional provinces?

Unbelievable!

What utter rot.

 

[eternumviti]

I thought a post-3 year update might be interesting.

So your personal leave (so may types!) was based on unrealistic expectations and a lack of understanding on the EU's structures and institutions.

I assume you have more of a grasp now?

I had more of a grasp of the EU's structures and institutions than probably anyone else here, as I recall. That is what made me realise that the UK needed to leave.

Nobody here could accurately distinguish the functions of the European Council, the Council of the EU, the Council of Europe, the Committee of Permanent Representatives, the European Parliament, the ECB, the ECJ, the CJEU, the ECHR, the Eurogroupe, and probably still can't without making a dive for Google.

Ask me when there is any realistic chance of that happening. Like a hit album, life's too short to worry about the something that's unlikely to happen.

Stephen

There are two choices for the EU, or more specifically for the Eurozone. It has to form a full fiscal, banking, political and transfer union, or it will fail. This really isn't a matter of if, but when, and how much damage ensues.

 

[eternumviti]

Membership of institutions means accepting their rules of you are not on the body that determines them (welcome back the old friend of the golf club analogy) and that means the ECJ.

Freedom of movement for EU citizens which is not within EU control is not a freedom but a UK concession. As has been shown, the UK cannot guarantee a "no idiot government" policy, no sensible European government would buy that.

Independent body to oversee trade policy? Whoosh, there goes EU sovereignty in a way you wouldn't want for us.

Upshot: only one horn present in animal representation.

The golf club analogy is very, very weak because of the vast degree of over simplification of the issues. Ultimately though, if you feel unable to abide by the rules, you need to leave.

An independent body with UK and EU (EC) representation would dilute EU sovereignty, would it?

Presumably sovereignty is a one-way thing as regards the EU. Take it, but never give any back.

I believe it is a good idea, and it was one floated by a group of respected German economists as I recall

 

[eternumviti]

Unbelievable!

What utter rot.

Was that a yes or a no, Bob?

 

[eisenach]

Do you all wish for the UK to be subsumed into a United States of Europa, with power concentrated and centralised into the Brussels' institutions, and the former nations reduced to regional provinces?

I fear much more being subsumed into a greater United States of America.

George Bernard Shaw's "Apple Cart" gives a whimsical take on how it might happen. I don't think Trump would be that subtle, though.

I quite like being European.

 

[eternumviti]

This is an interesting point. Compromise is at the heart of the EU—which can make it a frustrating institution sometimes.

But why should this extend to members outside the EU?

Stephen

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. No compromise when Cameron went begging.

Why should it extend to countries outside the EU?

The old protectionism dilemma. Perhaps to make life better for everybody?

 

[eternumviti]

I fear much more being subsumed into a greater United States of America.

George Bernard Shaw's "Apple Cart" gives a whimsical take on how it might happen. I don't think Trump would be that subtle, though.

I quite like being European.

It is a pretty horrendous thought, though at least the US is a democracy.

I like being European too.

 

[gingermrkettle]

though at least the US is a democracy

Satire is now officially dead.