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Oh Britain, what have you done (part ∞+14)?

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Corbyn beginning to see that May is targetting his backbenchers to get her deal through.
And can't do much about it.
 
Dear PFMers,

As you are aware earlier this week I survived a No Confidence vote in myself by graciously offering some of you £50 for your votes. With this ringing endorsement I now feel able to reach out and welcome you all on board to unite behind my dog and coffee based plan. Except for certain members who know full well who they are.

Matthew
 
Vinniemac said:
Doesn’t answer my question. Do you think threats of violence should rule out another referendum? Because that really would be a bleak future.

How were the last three elections won by illicit means?
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Violence should never play a part in any electoral decision but you have to be realistic, many are not going to be happy, as I imagine anyone who voted remain wouldn't be if it were cancelled by offering an option which doesn't come close to the original ref.
The last 3 elections were won on false promises, not a single Tory manifesto, other than punishing the disabled, has come to pass, so yes, illicit. All of which have had devastating consequences on millions of people in this country.
To offer May's deal as the Brexit option, along with remain is forcing a result, it's undemocratic for one & despicably sly & manipulative, it's one thing to claim outcomes during a campaign, outcomes the opposite campaign can dismiss with fact if they so wish, it's another to force the leave camp to abstain from the referendum, only fare way is no deal vs remain, people then have their options before them as there are enough facts around to cover both options, people will then vote on a clean slate, offering May's option is nothing more than political manipulation, a path I would hope even the hardest remainer would not want to see this country go down.
 
Vinniemac said:
Are you suggesting that we shouldn’t have another referendum because some people might resort to violence? Because if you are, it suggests that the best way for people who do want another ref to get it is to threaten violence if they don’t.
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I find it highly manipulative when prominent politicians collude with this stuff- like Grayling last week actually exploiting it-

“The transport secretary told the Daily Mail that Britain would become a less tolerant and more nationalistic society if it failed to leave the EU. He said reversing the referendum result would result in the 17 million people who voted to leave feeling cheated and urged colleagues to support Theresa May’s deal”.

He needs to face this shit down and not use it.
 
Ragaman said:
The long term effects of a faux ref could be long standing, the immediate unrest will be of no significance but once we start fixing referendums to suit, this can only lead to a bleak future, it's a dark path to take & why Corbyn, against his better wishes I imagine has the integrity to stand by the result, you have to remember, the last election, & the 2 prior were won by illicit means, they were upheld against the wishes of many & all 3 outcomes have proved very costly for many in this country, life changing.
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The Leave vote was very likely won by illicit means. Is this democratic in your book Raga? It isn't in mine.
 
matthewr said:
Dear PFMers,

As you are aware earlier this week I survived a No Confidence vote in myself by graciously offering some of you £50 for your votes. With this ringing endorsement I now feel able to reach out and welcome you all on board to unite behind my dog and coffee based plan. Except for certain members who know full well who they are.

Matthew
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No amount of fifty pound notes will sway me from my “cats and coffee” red lines. I’m going to buy a yellow jacket and shout derogatory slogans outside your place of work until you change your mind.
 
TheDecameron said:
I find it highly manipulative when prominent politicians collude with this stuff- like Grayling last week actually exploiting it-

“The transport secretary told the Daily Mail that Britain would become a less tolerant and more nationalistic society if it failed to leave the EU. He said reversing the referendum result would result in the 17 million people who voted to leave feeling cheated and urged colleagues to support Theresa May’s deal”.

He needs to face this shit down and not use it.
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2011 riots et al: we will not be cowed by criminality

Now: we do this or there will be unrest

 
Still said:
I was also disappointed by this. From your contributions to pfm you appear to be much more special then t'Dec has given you credit for.

Voting Leave whilst taking advantage of the benefits of U.K. E.U. membership for your family and business is classic gammon.
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Indeed. Free uni fees for the kids just over the border woohoo! Won't need to sell one of my houses in England to fund it now.

But they have not made it easy. Been here a year and a half nearly and only just got my social security number. Thank god I now have access to a decent health service....
 
Ragaman said:
Violence should never play a part in any electoral decision but you have to be realistic, many are not going to be happy, as I imagine anyone who voted remain wouldn't be if it were cancelled by offering an option which doesn't come close to the original ref.
The last 3 elections were won on false promises, not a single Tory manifesto, other than punishing the disabled, has come to pass, so yes, illicit. All of which have had devastating consequences on millions of people in this country.
To offer May's deal as the Brexit option, along with remain is forcing a result, it's undemocratic for one & despicably sly & manipulative, it's one thing to claim outcomes during a campaign, outcomes the opposite campaign can dismiss with fact if they so wish, it's another to force the leave camp to abstain from the referendum, only fare way is no deal vs remain, people then have their options before them as there are enough facts around to cover both options, people will then vote on a clean slate, offering May's option is nothing more than political manipulation, a path I would hope even the hardest remainer would not want to see this country go down.
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I can see the argument that the 2010 coalition was unconstitutional, but, whether you like it or not, austerity was a popular policy in 2015 and 2017. The Conservatives won both elections fair and square, and the austerity measures were in their manifestos. It’s terrible, and the last eight years have been beyond terrible, but the results weren’t illicit.

May’s deal with the EU may be terrible, but it’s *not* staying in then EU. It’s a worse deal than we have now, but that was always going to be the case.
 
Vinniemac said:
I can see the argument that the 2010 coalition was unconstitutional, but, whether you like it or not, austerity was a popular policy in 2015 and 2017. The Conservatives won both elections fair and square, and the austerity measures were in their manifestos. It’s terrible, and the last eight years have been beyond terrible, but the results weren’t illicit.

May’s deal with the EU may be terrible, but it’s *not* staying in then EU. It’s a worse deal than we have now, but that was always going to be the case.
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Except: https://www.theguardian.com/politic...es-fined-70000-for-campaign-spending-failures

I'd also throw in the fact that the Conservative Party had the support of the far-right press, a favour it duly repayed by axing Leveson 2.

Not exactly a level playing field.
 
Still said:
I already have. Obviously it's not "a ban".
Apart from anything else JC doesn't have the authority to decree such a "ban".
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Darling Jeremy doesn't seem to have much authority outside of his allotment.
 
TPA said:
How would you describe it?
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urge
verb
\ ˈərj \
urged; urging
Definition of urge
(Entry 1 of 2)

transitive verb

1: to present, advocate, or demand earnestly or pressinglyhis conviction was upheld on a theory never urged at his … trial— Leon Friedman
2: to undertake the accomplishment of with energy, swiftness, or enthusiasmurge the attack
3a: SOLICIT, ENTREATurged him to keep trying
b: to serve as a motive or reason forurged by a sense of duty
4: to force or impel in an indicated direction or into motion or greater speedthe dog urged the sheep toward the gate

ban1
/ban/
verb
  1. 1.
    officially or legally prohibit (something).
    "parking is banned around the harbour in summer"
    synonyms: prohibit, forbid, veto, proscribe, disallow, outlaw, make illegal, embargo, place an embargo on, bar, debar, block, stop, put a stop to, put an end to, suppress, interdict; More



noun
  1. 1.
    an official or legal prohibition.
    "a proposed ban on cigarette advertising"
    synonyms: prohibition, veto, proscription, embargo, bar, suppression, stoppage, interdict, interdiction, moratorium, injunction
    "a total ban on smoking"



  2. 2.
    ARCHAIC
    a curse.
    "the land might be smitten by the ban which once fell upon the Canaanites"
 
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