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Oh Britain, what have you done (part ∞+13)?

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droodzilla said:
Sorry gassor, this is pure ignorance on your part. Many (I would bet, a majority) of Labour Party members fall precisely into this category.
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Drood I have the evidence of a survey of 1000 members and clear cut logic on my side, what have you got?
 
PsB said:
All is well, then: the strategy is sound and working as we speak; the inner circle and LP members are all united behind Corbyn; and the Guardian can make a living by informing us plebs about what is old news to you.

Rock on.
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PsB said:
It's interesting that you react this way, because I wasn't being particularly sarcastic: merely taking your statements at face value. You and Seanm express general satisfaction with the party's direction and profess faith in the party's leadership and its strategy. Meanwhile we non-members get to see poll results on LP members' views on Brexit, no-deal etc. While there is strong support for Corbyn, there is also what I perceive (from the outside) to be a disconnect between members' views on Brexit (89% think it is a mistake and 88% would vote Remain) and the rather fluctuating positions taken on the subject or at least expressed by the leadership. 89% is not a trivial number.

(PS: I reserve a right to deploy moderate amounts of sarcasm every time people deploy patronising rubbish that flies in the face of evidence.)
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I wouldn't call your comment sarcastic, I'd call it peevish, going on pissy, and there's no real justification for it: the "disconnect" was well reported at the time, it's not insider knowledge. It's being reported again now because they've found another way of serving it up - that's basically what the polling was for. The nature of the disconnect is what Drood and I are trying to explain, because while it's there in the reporting you do have to look for it: most members support remain AND Corbyn. There is no split between leadership and members, despite the desperate attempts of The Guardian to conjure one into being.
 
Seanm said:
I wouldn't call your comment sarcastic, I'd call it peevish, going on pissy, and there's no real justification for it: the "disconnect" was well reported at the time, it's not insider knowledge. It's being reported again now because they've found another way of serving it up - that's basically what the polling was for. The nature of the disconnect is what Drood and I are trying to explain, because while it's there in the reporting you do have to look for it: most members support remain AND Corbyn. There is no split between leadership and members, despite the desperate attempts of The Guardian to conjure one into being.
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If there's no split between leadership and membership, you as a membercould ask them as leaders, if they would kindly supply you with figures for new members joining and members leaving/resignations for the last three months. If they have compiled reasons, for both joining and resignations - and an efficient organisation would surely do so - including them would validate even more the open-hearted cameraderie which you say exists between the executive and the members.
 
Exactly how many angels can you get on the head of a pin?

In other news, hell in a handcart in less than 100 days...
 
Seanm said:
I wouldn't call your comment sarcastic, I'd call it peevish, going on pissy, and there's no real justification for it: the "disconnect" was well reported at the time, it's not insider knowledge. It's being reported again now because they've found another way of serving it up - that's basically what the polling was for. The nature of the disconnect is what Drood and I are trying to explain, because while it's there in the reporting you do have to look for it: most members support remain AND Corbyn. There is no split between leadership and members, despite the desperate attempts of The Guardian to conjure one into being.
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As some people are placing great store by insignificant and worthless opinion polls I'd like to use my clear cut logic to announce that last year I didn't so eat to a single Labour Party member who wasn't fully supportive of Corbyn.

Presumably the Corbyn hatred is like the decline in membership and is just slow to filter through.

Maybe it's time to wheel out anti-Semitism again or the friend of the IRA stuff?
 
ff1d1l said:
If there's no split between leadership and membership, you as a membercould ask them as leaders, if they would kindly supply you with figures for new members joining and members leaving/resignations for the last three months. If they have compiled reasons, for both joining and resignations - and an efficient organisation would surely do so - including them would validate even more the open-hearted cameraderie which you say exists between the executive and the members.
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Yawn.
 
Seanm said:
It's in the same damn article. Basically everyone in the party is pro-remain and yet
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There cannot be sustained unity when 88% of members disagree with the leader over this issue. The closer Corbyn gets to deciding on a clear negotiating position the more he will become vulnerable.
 
HarryB said:
Maybe it's time to wheel out anti-Semitism again or the friend of the IRA stuff?
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Kids stuff beside his self inflicted damage re his brexit position.
Notice how all the above has died a death?
The tories have told their media pals "Never interfere with an enemy while he’s in the process of destroying himself".
 
timola said:
Taking you facts at face value, the UK would need an extra 50,000 civil servants to match what the EU has, which on my rough calcualtions (50Kx£50K) is a cost of £2.5Bn to the UK, much lower than membership. Others here have better challenged you on this point anyway.
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Ten seconds on Google shows the average civil servants pay to be just over 32K a year add usual overheads, national insurance etc be about 3-3.5 times that so 5.07 billion.
 
ff1d1l said:
Kids stuff beside his self inflicted damage re his brexit position.
Notice how all the above has died a death?
The tories have told their media pals "Never interfere with an enemy while he’s in the process of destroying himself".
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Right. So the anti-Semtism stuff was lead story on TV and papers for weeks on end but now it's just kids stuff.

So, May will win her vote and the membership will turn on Corbyn.

Nowt changes round here. I'm almost begging for another ban
 
gassor said:
There cannot be sustained unity when 88% of members disagree with the leader over this issue. The closer Corbyn gets to deciding on a clear negotiating position the more he will become vulnerable.
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The remain alliance in the party will fall apart before the the leadership-membership alliance, IMO: it's inherently unstable, since it's made up of Corbynites and those who are transparently using the People's Vote as a weapon against Corbyn. Every Guardian headline like the one we're discussing puts this right/left remain alliance under further strain. The people running the campaign know this, and this is why I say it is not aimed at persuading Labour members and supporters to put pressure on Corbyn: it's aimed at you lot, and it's designed to undermine Labour's democratic legitimacy, like all the other anti-Corbyn campaigns thus far.
 
russel said:
Ten seconds on Google shows the average civil servants pay to be just over 32K a year add usual overheads, national insurance etc be about 3-3.5 times that so 5.07 billion.
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A rough rule of thumb is the cost to the taxpayer for a civil servant is double their salary.
 
gassor said:
Drood I have the evidence of a survey of 1000 members and clear cut logic on my side, what have you got?
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Please could you link to the survey? Did it ask the members surveyed whether they would still vote for Corbyn in a leadership contest?
 
Seanm said:
The remain alliance in the party will fall apart before the the leadership-membership alliance, IMO: it's inherently unstable, since it's made up of Corbynites and those who are transparently using the People's Vote as a weapon against Corbyn. Every Guardian headline like the one we're discussing puts this right/left remain alliance under further strain. The people running the campaign know this, and this is why I say it is not aimed at persuading Labour members and supporters to put pressure on Corbyn: it's aimed at you lot, and it's designed to undermine Labour's democratic legitimacy, like all the other anti-Corbyn campaigns thus far.
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IT'S AIMED AT YOU LOT.

I wouldn't worry too much about 'this lot' Seanm. The middle class, antique rug-owning massive are not representative of anything. They'll just utter the same stuff ad nauseum until they get their own way. They haven't even considered that the second referendum they are so desperate for could go against them again.
 
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