Oh Britain, what have you done (part ∞+13)?

[Lee T]

Some of the dispossessed/disenfranchised you mention probably had these sorts of ideas in mind when they voted.

You would need to speak to this demographic for clarity I suppose, I agree with some of this but I feel it is understandably impossible for many of us to fully comprehend the plight of those who voted in protest, desperate situations can make even the most level headed act in a way they would not normally do, this has to be remembered I feel, if the government had not taken away many of the civil liberties many take for granted, Brexit would not have happened, blame falls solely on government policy & their dealing with the poorest in society, Brexit was borne of ignorance, the ignorance continues.

 

[Lee T]

• No vote on Corbyn is scheduled at this stage. Sorry.

I do understand this, but neither is a new ref or the ending of Brexit on the cards yet many here speak as if this were so, as it stands, May's deal will be rejected in a couple of weeks, after this is anyone's guess. There are a number of outcomes, one being an end to this government & the need for a new GE, if many are happy with this government talking control for another 5 years, then fine, vote as you see fit. I will vote for what I believe will be for the betterment of the country, I cannot even contemplate assisting in the election of another 5 years of Tory rule, at any cost.

 

[Seanm]

This is such a terrible argument that basically comes down to "Not fair!". If they can't solve it now when they don't need to actually do anything, can be maximally vague and can ignore most of the details how on earth do they expect to manage when they are in charge? And why would anyone take them seriously if they cannot convince even people on their side that they know what to do?



It is exactly the same real politik calculus of "They have nowhere else to go" and is literally taking my vote for granted. New Labour's crime was not doing very much to help reduce regional and class inequality once they got elected.

Also although I joke about being a centrist, I am not really. I am a left wing traditional Labour voter. Thinking Corbyn is doing an obviously bad job doesn't make me a closet Blairite or Tory. Failing to acknowledge how terrible he has been is an electoral liability though and does rather beg the question what is everyone going to do if he loses?

It's not really an argument, and certainly not a plea for special dispensation. I was just stating something that seems to me to be obvious, but which apparently does need to be pointed out occasionally: building a new cross-class consensus is hard, and Brexit makes it harder. I know you think a good leader could have done away with these fundamental facts, but I think that's all unicorns.

I didn't accuse you of being a closet Tory or Blairite, by the way. You positioned yourself as a centrist, and I suggested that centrists really had no business posing as victims. It's absurd to claim equivalence between the lot of middle class liberals and the leftist and working class constituencies abandoned by Labour in the '80s. That's another thing that shouldn't need to be pointed out.

 

[Lee T]

Bollocks, I wouldn't trust Corbyn with anything to do with brexit.
No, Mays deal - the negotiated brexit deal - versus remain will do nicely, thanks. Ratification. By the people

So you are now happy with May's deal in place (the negotiated remain deal) with May at the helm negotiating for a further 21 months with the EU with a further 2 years of Tory policy taking hold.
I'm not the least bit surprised by this.
I think it is now safe to remove the word closet from your description.

 

[sean99]

No, a protest vote does not necessarily have "betterment of the country" as its motive. It's just, erm, a protest, and stuff the consequences. Some people just want to stick it to the System, others can feel that voting to make the country worse off will hasten a later crisis, which can then be exploited, etc. Some of the dispossessed/disenfranchised you mention probably had these sorts of ideas in mind when they voted.

A protest vote on a matter of such profound consequences is better called a temper tantrum. Part of being an adult is choosing wisely from imperfect options and not having a meltdown because everything isn’t how you want.

 

[wyjsar]

A reminder of why the UK voted for Brexit:
1. There's too many of them coming in (well, no, not really, immigration is currently good for the UK economy)
2. They're here to take advantage of the NHS (not really, the majority are here to work and earn more money than they would at home, we have very low unemployment at the moment and EU migrants are a net contributor to GDP)
3. We send £350m a week to Brussels (we get a good percentage back as the rebate, other goes to fund good projects that if our govt had its mitts on would not fund)
4. I, my children and my grandchildren cannot get a doctor's appointment because of the immigrants getting priority (you may well find that your doctor or other NHS staff who treat you at some point in your life wasn't born in the UK)
5. Turkey is going to join the EU and ALL of the Turks are going to come to the UK (er, no. Essentially an outright lie)
6. Immigrants get priority for social housing (no, but you may find that the majority of EU migrants are better able to maintain YOUR house)
7. Brussels - that's a foreign country isn't it? (no, it's a sprout)
8. They've outlawed bendy fruit haven't they? (no... when did you last have a straight banana?)
9. Give me miles, feet, inches, pounds and ounces. Didn't they bring in decimalisation? (we still have miles, feet, inches, pounds and ounces)
10. Of course my passport should be a dark blue colour (certainly a first world problem)
PS, a reminder not to feed the troll. He's laughing at all of you.

 

[russel]

What’s not so funny is- they’re deadly serious. If they don’t get their full Brexit, there will be civil disorder. Come to think of it, we haven’t had Mr. OFF WITH THEIR HEADS posting here for a while, maybe he’s shifted existential phase as predicted for a large proportion of the Brexit demographic.

Good, let them riot, shoot them and raise the average IQ of the nation. Happy new year and all that.

 

[timola]

Would you please give a similar list as to why you voted remain?

 

[wyjsar]

Hmm, I'll play.
1. To not **** up the economy
2. To enjoy the company of people from other countries
3. To believe in building tolerance of people from other backgrounds and countries in our nation. Quite frankly if we can't tolerate people of similar backgrounds from other countries then how are we going to be able to tolerate anyone a little bit different who also happens to hail from the promised sunny uplands of the UK?
4. No "i" in team - we're better of working together
5. A brake on some of the more idiotic ideas from the Tory party
6. Actual help for deprived areas of the country from the EU - such as Cornwall which is where I was born and brought up - that would not come from central government.
7. Roasting sprouts rather than boiling them
8. Distaste for racists
9. I'm not gullible
10. Acknowledgement of the UK democratic deficit with the fptp system

 

[kendo]

Would you please give a similar list as to why you voted remain?

No list, just an acknowledgement that almost every perceived "problem" with the EU as portrayed by the f*cktard Brexiteers was a problem that could be solved by our very own government* in Westminster.

* government? That is a very sick joke...

 

[ff1d1l]

So you are now happy with May's deal in place (the negotiated remain deal) with May at the helm negotiating for a further 21 months with the EU with a further 2 years of Tory policy taking hold.
I'm not the least bit surprised by this.
I think it is now safe to remove the word closet from your description.

? FFS learn to read, and don't pathetically extrapolate your weird interpretation of my position from what you think you've read.
Mays is the negotiated position. I'm good with a referendum on this versus remain.
Anything else you made up.
If anyone's carrying the can for this, it's the intellectual lightweights who voted for it and expected those who didn't vote for it to vote as they tell them to get them off the hook.
This is your baby, mate.

 

[timola]

Hmm, I'll play.
1. To not **** up the economy
2. To enjoy the company of people from other countries
3. To believe in building tolerance of people from other backgrounds and countries in our nation. Quite frankly if we can't tolerate people of similar backgrounds from other countries then how are we going to be able to tolerate anyone a little bit different who also happens to hail from the promised sunny uplands of the UK?
4. No "i" in team - we're better of working together
5. A brake on some of the more idiotic ideas from the Tory party
6. Actual help for deprived areas of the country from the EU - such as Cornwall which is where I was born and brought up - that would not come from central government.
7. Roasting sprouts rather than boiling them
8. Distaste for racists
9. I'm not gullible
10. Acknowledgement of the UK democratic deficit with the fptp system

Thanks for that. I think I now better understand your position on Brexit.

Points 2-10 I believe are to do with your desire for a Labour government and there is nothing there that cannot be done without the EU. Anyway after Brexit you will be better able to hold to account any goverment if they don't deliver on their promises (including Cornwall, after all it's our money the EU spends)....hoping the EU would do the governemnt's job for you is forlorn (the EU is neo-liberal and a drain on the UK's resources and wasteful).

Points 2 and 3 are laudable and signal your virtues very well. I do however believe you'll be able to continue those post Brexit on a worldwide basis.

So it really comes down to point 1, where I think the word there should be 'free' and you mean something more explicit. From the way the EU have worded the withdrawl agreement now on offer, I'm even more convinced the EU is worried that the word may mean 'free' and they would rather that not happen as it will mean the end of the EU.

I'm afraid you're list has done little to persuade me to your point of view, but thanks again for playing.

 

[PsB]

I do understand this, but neither is a new ref or the ending of Brexit on the cards yet many here speak as if this were so, as it stands, May's deal will be rejected in a couple of weeks, after this is anyone's guess. There are a number of outcomes, one being an end to this government & the need for a new GE, if many are happy with this government talking control for another 5 years, then fine, vote as you see fit. I will vote for what I believe will be for the betterment of the country, I cannot even contemplate assisting in the election of another 5 years of Tory rule, at any cost.

Quite agree with your first sentence. I’ve consistently said another referendum on the subject is a bad idea, just as the 2016 one was a terrible idea. Britain is supposed to be a parliamentary democracy. Questions like this should be debated and voted in Parliament.

There are plenty of other possible outcomes besides the ones you mention. Getting the GE you would like in the next, say, 3 months seems lower probability than some of these other options. I could be wrong.

 

[matthewr]

It's not really an argument, and certainly not a plea for special dispensation. I was just stating something that seems to me to be obvious, but which apparently does need to be pointed out occasionally: building a new cross-class consensus is hard, and Brexit makes it harder. I know you think a good leader could have done away with these fundamental facts, but I think that's all unicorns.

I didn't accuse you of being a closet Tory or Blairite, by the way. You positioned yourself as a centrist, and I suggested that centrists really had no business posing as victims. It's absurd to claim equivalence between the lot of middle class liberals and the leftist and working class constituencies abandoned by Labour in the '80s. That's another thing that shouldn't need to be pointed out.

That just sounds like explaining the problem in a way that allows one to get one's excuses in first. It's not our fault this is a unique time! There's always difficult problems because running the country is, obviously, not like running the local scout group and until 1997 any form of Labour government looked a long way away because there are always problems. It's even more of a baffling claim when the leader is a man with such unimpeachable left wing credentials -- if such a leader cannot convince the poor and disadvantaged that he is on their side and will make their life better then who can? None of the northern working class people I know are willing to give up the promise of a Labour government because they are implacable Brexiteers. They just need someone to explain it a way that mitigates their concerns and offers them something better than what the Tories are serving up (which I do not believe to be too hard!).

And when I say "good leader" I don't mean Nelson Mandela or Ghandi I mean someone with a bit of charisma, ideally some modicum of intelligence and a vision that can be a) articulated clearly and b) stand up to more than 20 mins of scrutiny. It's just the basic "England expects" type deal that comes with wanting to be Prime Minister.

PS I should perhaps say, Sean, that I suspect you and I agree on most things and it causes me some discomfort to disagree with you on Corbyn. I just think he is wrong on Brexit and his electoral strategy is wrong because it's making him look so irredeemably useless and borderline irresponsible in terms of the potential damage to the country. It almost makes we want to quote the old SWP line "If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem" at him.

PPS For clarity I wrote that then edited it somewhat when I had fixed my insulin. Hopefully it makes sense now.

 

[The Far North]

And then there was a poll of Labour people in the Guardian. Not what Jeremy and Diane wanted, by the looks of it. https://www.theguardian.com/politic...believe-corbyn-should-back-second-brexit-vote

Labour members are significantly more opposed to Brexit than Jeremy Corbyn is, with 72% of them thinking their leader should fully support a second referendum, according to a study of attitudes in the party.

The polling, part of an ongoing wider academic study into attitudes in various parties, found that only 18% opposed Labour campaigning for a second referendum, while 88% would then opt for remain if such a vote was held.

 

[PsB]

And then there was a poll of Labour people in the Guardian. Not what Jeremy and Diane wanted, by the looks of it. https://www.theguardian.com/politic...believe-corbyn-should-back-second-brexit-vote

How can this be, if Labour really is a grassroots democracy where members have a decisive influence on the policies the party pursues? I am shocked, shocked, to quote Seanm.

 

[Lee T]

This is your baby, mate.

This is Cameron's baby, the rest is noise.
You can thank Cameron's selfish delusion that he could predict the outcome of the voting public to gain office & his governments policies for Brexit, along with May's selfish immigration strategy to play on the racist side of Brexit & her pathetic negotiating skills & handling of Brexit to get us to where we are now, my Brexit vote was worthless, I voted for Labour last election.
May's deal is dead BTW, hoping for a ref with this included is just as delusional.

I stand by the closet remark, it's clear to anyone with a brain cell.

 

[Seanm]

That just sounds like explaining the problem in a way that allows one to get one's excuses in first. It's not our fault this is a unique time! There's always difficult problems because running the country is, obviously, not like running the local scout group and until 1997 any form of Labour government looked a long way away because there are always problems. It's even more of a baffling claim when the leader is a man with such unimpeachable left wing credentials -- if such a leader cannot convince the poor and disadvantaged that he is on their side and will make their life better then who can? None of the northern working class people I know are willing to give up the promise of a Labour government because they are implacable Brexiteers. They just need someone to explain it a way that mitigates their concerns and offers them something better than what the Tories are serving up (which I do not believe to be too hard!).

And when I say "good leader" I don't mean Nelson Mandela or Ghandi I mean someone with a bit of charisma, ideally some modicum of intelligence and a vision that can be a) articulated clearly and b) stand up to more than 20 mins of scrutiny. It's just the basic "England expects" type deal that comes with wanting to be Prime Minister.

PS I should perhaps say, Sean, that I suspect you and I agree on most things and it causes me some discomfort to disagree with you on Corbyn. I just think he is wrong on Brexit and his electoral strategy is wrong because it's making him look so irredeemably useless and borderline irresponsible in terms of the potential damage to the country. It almost makes we want to quote the old SWP line "If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem" at him.

PPS For clarity I wrote that then edited it somewhat when I had fixed my insulin. Hopefully it makes sense now.

We probably agree on most things but have different ideas about the level of agency enjoyed by party leaders, and by political movements. It's the materialist in me. The leadership are materialists too and I think they understand that they are not in command of the forces in play here. They can help shape events and ideas if they pick their moments. But Corbyn could be the most brilliant and charismatic leader since, I don't know, let's say Lenin - and he still would not be able to do much more than he's doing now, IMO.

And then there was a poll of Labour people in the Guardian. Not what Jeremy and Diane wanted, by the looks of it. https://www.theguardian.com/politic...believe-corbyn-should-back-second-brexit-vote

How can this be, if Labour really is a grassroots democracy where members have a decisive influence on the policies the party pursues? I am shocked, shocked, to quote Seanm.

There is nothing here that would shock anyone who's been paying attention, including the fact that the chief researcher here explicitly conceived of the project as a means of putting pressure on the leadership, or that he and The Guardian are pretending to believe that the key factor determining LAbour's position is the way Corbyn personally feels about the EU. Especially unshocking is that members don't seem to have been asked whether they prioritise a second referendum over a Corbyn government. This is all old news: Labour members are overwhelmingly in favour of remain. A very sizeable majority, however, think that getting Labour into government is the most important thing, and will continue to support the leadership whatever.

PsB though will no doubt be shocked that Our Leader does not spontaneously express the Will of the People, and is continuing with the strategy that was democratically mandated at conference.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

It's not really an argument, and certainly not a plea for special dispensation. I was just stating something that seems to me to be obvious, but which apparently does need to be pointed out occasionally: building a new cross-class consensus is hard, and Brexit makes it harder. I know you think a good leader could have done away with these fundamental facts, but I think that's all unicorns.

I don't think it is a matter of 'doing away with fundamental facts' (and I dislike your over-use of the unicorns metaphor, btw, it demeans you); I do however think that a good leader would be able to make significant headway in the face of those 'fundamental facts', something Corbyn's LP hasn't achieved.

What has he done, for example, to erode the wavering Tories' support for their party in the key marginals?

 

[PsB]

PsB though will no doubt be shocked that Our Leader does not spontaneously express the Will of the People, and is continuing with the strategy that was democratically mandated at conference.

You know perfectly well that the "strategy" agreed at the conference was a fudge, sorry an artful compromise between what members wanted and the Brexit line pushed by the leadership.