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Now the dust has settled - the Karousel

The bearing is so pivotal to the sound of the LP12 I'm sure you're right. What irks me is that you can't buy a cheaper like for like replacement for the old bearing. People wanting to keep a vintage deck the way it is have no options for replacing worn bearings. I wish someone would offer a refurbishment service.

Given the number of bearings that would be needed to provide this service and retooling/sourcing white liners they would likely end up being a similar price to the Karousel. Linn would be considered madmen!

And if there really was a market for it someone else would already be offering them!
 
Given the number of bearings that would be needed to provide this service and retooling/sourcing white liners they would likely end up being a similar price to the Karousel. Linn would be considered madmen!

And if there really was a market for it someone else would already be offering them!
Someone is offering an alternative bearing

I fail to see the problem with how Linn operate re the LP12
 
The Mober bearing is a testament to Linns abilities to manufacture bearings, and it doesnt come close.

I agree that there is little to criticise in Linns curation of the LP12.
 
@Ron Ellis - really helpful contribution Ron. In the shop I thought the Lingo 4 was a big leap too - always more difficult to assess when you get home but I certainly like it a lot.

If the Karousel makes another leap as you suggest I really ought to stop 'upgrading' (where have I heard that before?! :D)

I'll put a posting here around 3rd week Sept re my Karousel experience (I feel a Hollies song coming on...…)[/QUO

Hi ex brickie (I actually need a current brickie at the moment)
Will look forward to hearing your experience of the bearing, and hope that you are not after my blood after committing!
Also hopeful too, that this will be my last upgrade!
 
I’ve just managed to buy a Karousel at a reasonable price without the interventions of a dealer. Will post an assessment in due course of nearly new Cirkus+tranquility vs Karousel. I’ll try and figure out if I can 3D print a Delrin adapter for the Karousel so that the tranquility can be fitted, should be an interesting comparison. I’m very much hoping that the Karousel knocks the Cirkus+tranquility into a cocked hat and that the tranquility makes no difference to the Karousel. I can then sell both and the upgrade would be (almost) cost free!
 
So far I've not seen a useful comment here about any improvements with the Karousel (apart from several referring to the lower noise floor). Rather than those who don't own one (and clearly don't want to) criticising something they haven't heard, how about some constructive comment from actual owners please?
Curious that you'd consider several comments about lower noise floor being not useful.
Lower noise equals more music information.
 
The karousel bearing is essentially three part, rather than one (please pedants - we all know that in both cases there are more than three pieces in the construction). It also clamps to the sub-chassis via three dowels and a flange rather than 2 flanges and three bolts (or I assume so from online material).

Logically, the dowels v. flange would be a "worse" joint..... So is there a claim as to what change has produced the improvement?

£750 is a lot of money for a bearing (presumably including fitting), but the karousel is a total PITA thing to make to the accuracy and finish needed, and there are at least two profits, one of them profit on profit, involved.

Its not like that. The three dowels locate the bearing. There is a flange that mates with the underside of the subchassis then a flanged "nut" that screws on from the top. So there is effectively a 360 degree flange that sandwiches the subchassis. Looks like a far more secure fitting that distributes the stress rather then locating it in 3 places.
 
There will NEVER be a "perfect" bearing for an LP12, sure there may be better. and less so.....

The problem lies with the design, as in the huge majority of belt-drive, and other, turntables. The ideal would be a platter that rides PERFECTLY centrally in a spindle bearing and that takes direct drive, although the Vector system comes close(r). (No, I have not heard any Vector driven system, but the fact remains as an engineering certainty.)

Comparing two LP12 bearings, what factors are going to matter to sound reproduction, or, more to the point, what the stylus reads/sends back as signal?

Incidentally, the Tranquility has an effect on the thrust bearing, so logically ought to have all but no effect on what the stylus reads.

Do you really think that the effects of a bearing, that generates vibrations and is connected directly to the surface of the record, isn't going to be picked up by the stylus?
 
Do you really think that the effects of a bearing, that generates vibrations and is connected directly to the surface of the record, isn't going to be picked up by the stylus?

I am unsure what the connection there is, or what you are getting at. I was merely pointing out that you are a million miles from perfect by having something trying to drag the platter in one direction, sideways, all of the time - pretty simple logic really.
 
Its not like that. The three dowels locate the bearing. There is a flange that mates with the underside of the subchassis then a flanged "nut" that screws on from the top. So there is effectively a 360 degree flange that sandwiches the subchassis. Looks like a far more secure fitting that distributes the stress rather then locating it in 3 places.

Sound very like the adaption that I made to the Cirkus here, if I understand you correctly ;)
 
Do you really think that the effects of a bearing, that generates vibrations and is connected directly to the surface of the record, isn't going to be picked up by the stylus?


Here's the thing, alone in sources, the trutable kicks out a relatively feeble output via the cartridge. The cartridge is vibrating in the groove and likewise the bearing will have some vibration of its own. Now, given both are, in the real world, both tiny signals we know that, should the bearing vibrate in certain manner that, it will in effect, cancel out some of the signal from the stylus. My experience with the tranquility is that, by lightening the load on the bearing, you are in reality, cutting out vibration and hey presto loads of detail previously lost now appears out of the old fruitbox. My conclusion is therefore that, Linn's Cirkus is a fairly "lossy" bearing as bearings go and that, that was one of the reasons people liked to pick certain aspects of the Linns sound apart, at the level of price being charged. All The Tranquility did was, show just how naff the Linn's bearing is at the price charged. That is the key, for the price being asked, the Linn's bearing was out of date and others have sailed past Linn.

The entire "Prat" whibble, was and still is, a completely fallacious concept that was actually a marketing ploy for the Linn's failings. I know my monitors inside out, I've used them for 10 years however, there are days when, everything sounds like it's being pulled apart and nothing, even my reference tracks sounds "right". I know that is inside my head, it's down to my mood combined with local temperature and humidity conditions. Primarily though, it's down to how I am hearing music on those days. It is my perception of how music sounds and I've tested this with other engineers with far greater experience than I.

The days of my red button Linn, Mission 774 are long gone, if you really want that era of Linn sound then buy an old well looked after one and have it regularly serviced and don't upgrade it It does something to vinyl where, the sum is greater than the parts even though, it is demonstrably not up to the performance levels of some, in relative terms, very modestly priced modern day TTs. So no, my contemporary LP12 does not sound like an "Old Linn" it does however sound a lot more like what was recorded in the first place and that's what I expect it to do and, if the beat that was recorded has a groove, I expect it to convey that as well. I don't tap my feet when I'm listening to say, John Martyn Bless The Weather, I do however expect my TT to render his performance with something of a convincing air and it does.

You see, you can't have it both ways despite what certain TT manufacturers would have you believe. Any TT that renders every disc you throw on it "listenable" is quite plainly "inaccurate", there are some albums that are just bloody awful recordings, mastered as to emasculate them or, victims of a run of truly duff pressings. Given all this, can we please, just stop pretending that there is anything resembling the mythical "prat" and just admit like grown ups, it was marketing twaddle to excuse a certain manufacturers weaknesses?

Of the plethora of videos about just about every aspect of recording and mixing, one that I haven't seen really done in depth is on "Masking". There's a classic example of how people do not understand the ramifications of "masking" on Rick Beatos channel where he tries to copy the snare sound of Alex Van Halen. There's numerous comments about how "Alex's snare" has much less bass in it". The reality is, Rick's vast experience means he knows that, actually Alex's snare does have that level of bass in it when you hear the kit soloed, the moment you add the bass, the guitar and the vocals, it is to a degree, "masked" because the other instruments combine to create a form of phasing that to our ears, make the snare sound brighter and less bass heavy than it really is. It's one of the reasons why upmarket mixing desks introduced what is known as "Solo In place" and many of the best mixers in the business, mute rather than solo tracks. Go and have listen to a few of Rick Beato's "What makes this song great" series of videos where you often hear the individual constituents of the mix for the first time and how different they sound in isolation to how they sound in the track. To certain degree, the interface between stylus, record , record and bearing in TT will have the same effect. Think back , if you're of a certain age, to those tin plate humming tops we had as kids. How, if you very gently rested a fingernail against the edge as it span, it would change the pitch of the hum. In simplistic terms that's akin to the interface between TT bearing and a stylus.

I'm as guilty as anyone, even more so given what i do, I have chucked serious money at a replay method which I know is inherently flawed. If we were rational about it, none of us would own TTs, we're not though, music has this damnably inconvenient "emotional aspect" about it and that, reaches into the kit we all play it on. Our hifis are reflective of how we view music emotionally as much as anything else, we buy kit we "like" the sound of, we with TTs, have no real right whatsoever to claim any sort of "moral superiority" for whatever TT we choose to use. Essentially we' arguing that my outdated mechanical system is better than your outdated mechanical system. We might as well being disagreeing over Walschaerts versus Caprotti valve gear.
 
Are yall kidding me? Are Linn still doing this stuff? Sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss. The biggest improvement i ever had with my LP12 was selling it and getting of the Karousel. I can't believe people are still falling for it.
 
I am unsure what the connection there is, or what you are getting at. I was merely pointing out that you are a million miles from perfect by having something trying to drag the platter in one direction, sideways, all of the time - pretty simple logic really.

I think I misunderstood your question about what effect would a bearing have on the sound of a turntable - I read it as "why would it have an effect" but really you were questioning which are the important aspects that will affect the stylus.
Apologies.
 
Here's the thing, alone in sources, the trutable kicks out a relatively feeble output via the cartridge. The cartridge is vibrating in the groove and likewise the bearing will have some vibration of its own. Now, given both are, in the real world, both tiny signals we know that, should the bearing vibrate in certain manner that, it will in effect, cancel out some of the signal from the stylus. My experience with the tranquility is that, by lightening the load on the bearing, you are in reality, cutting out vibration and hey presto loads of detail previously lost now appears out of the old fruitbox. My conclusion is therefore that, Linn's Cirkus is a fairly "lossy" bearing as bearings go and that, that was one of the reasons people liked to pick certain aspects of the Linns sound apart, at the level of price being charged. All The Tranquility did was, show just how naff the Linn's bearing is at the price charged. That is the key, for the price being asked, the Linn's bearing was out of date and others have sailed past Linn.

The entire "Prat" whibble, was and still is, a completely fallacious concept that was actually a marketing ploy for the Linn's failings. I know my monitors inside out, I've used them for 10 years however, there are days when, everything sounds like it's being pulled apart and nothing, even my reference tracks sounds "right". I know that is inside my head, it's down to my mood combined with local temperature and humidity conditions. Primarily though, it's down to how I am hearing music on those days. It is my perception of how music sounds and I've tested this with other engineers with far greater experience than I.

The days of my red button Linn, Mission 774 are long gone, if you really want that era of Linn sound then buy an old well looked after one and have it regularly serviced and don't upgrade it It does something to vinyl where, the sum is greater than the parts even though, it is demonstrably not up to the performance levels of some, in relative terms, very modestly priced modern day TTs. So no, my contemporary LP12 does not sound like an "Old Linn" it does however sound a lot more like what was recorded in the first place and that's what I expect it to do and, if the beat that was recorded has a groove, I expect it to convey that as well. I don't tap my feet when I'm listening to say, John Martyn Bless The Weather, I do however expect my TT to render his performance with something of a convincing air and it does.

You see, you can't have it both ways despite what certain TT manufacturers would have you believe. Any TT that renders every disc you throw on it "listenable" is quite plainly "inaccurate", there are some albums that are just bloody awful recordings, mastered as to emasculate them or, victims of a run of truly duff pressings. Given all this, can we please, just stop pretending that there is anything resembling the mythical "prat" and just admit like grown ups, it was marketing twaddle to excuse a certain manufacturers weaknesses?

Of the plethora of videos about just about every aspect of recording and mixing, one that I haven't seen really done in depth is on "Masking". There's a classic example of how people do not understand the ramifications of "masking" on Rick Beatos channel where he tries to copy the snare sound of Alex Van Halen. There's numerous comments about how "Alex's snare" has much less bass in it". The reality is, Rick's vast experience means he knows that, actually Alex's snare does have that level of bass in it when you hear the kit soloed, the moment you add the bass, the guitar and the vocals, it is to a degree, "masked" because the other instruments combine to create a form of phasing that to our ears, make the snare sound brighter and less bass heavy than it really is. It's one of the reasons why upmarket mixing desks introduced what is known as "Solo In place" and many of the best mixers in the business, mute rather than solo tracks. Go and have listen to a few of Rick Beato's "What makes this song great" series of videos where you often hear the individual constituents of the mix for the first time and how different they sound in isolation to how they sound in the track. To certain degree, the interface between stylus, record , record and bearing in TT will have the same effect. Think back , if you're of a certain age, to those tin plate humming tops we had as kids. How, if you very gently rested a fingernail against the edge as it span, it would change the pitch of the hum. In simplistic terms that's akin to the interface between TT bearing and a stylus.

I'm as guilty as anyone, even more so given what i do, I have chucked serious money at a replay method which I know is inherently flawed. If we were rational about it, none of us would own TTs, we're not though, music has this damnably inconvenient "emotional aspect" about it and that, reaches into the kit we all play it on. Our hifis are reflective of how we view music emotionally as much as anything else, we buy kit we "like" the sound of, we with TTs, have no real right whatsoever to claim any sort of "moral superiority" for whatever TT we choose to use. Essentially we' arguing that my outdated mechanical system is better than your outdated mechanical system. We might as well being disagreeing over Walschaerts versus Caprotti valve gear.


I always thought PRaT was a Naim thing, but maybe it was a "flat earth" thing. If you don't like it or disagree with it as a description / term / thing, that's fine, but I'm not sure why you need to be so disparaging of those who do like it.

About Tranquility - it does, as you say, "lighten the load" on the bearing. However, does this not just change the frequency at which the noise is being generated, ie move it, rather than remove it?
 
The entire "Prat" whibble, was and still is, a completely fallacious concept that was actually a marketing ploy for the Linn's failings.

I guess that depends on how you define failure. Sure, Linn's propaganda was effective but the truth remains that if the product had been terrible no amount of clever slogans would've saved it. Hi-Fi history is a graveyard of great claims for sunken products. The LP12 survived and became one of the best selling and most highly regarded turntables of all time for a reason.

I have chucked serious money at a replay method which I know is inherently flawed. If we were rational about it, none of us would own TTs..

Speak for yourself. Is vinyl flawed? Yes, but everything is. What vinyl can do is connect you with the soul of the artists in a way very few digital sources can. Rather than just being impressed by how quite the background is, how tight the bass and clear the treble, vinyl makes you love the music. Flaw? Isn't this what the whole point is? And the LP12 is better and doing this than most.

Are yall kidding me? Are Linn still doing this stuff?

I agree. All Linn have done is make a bearing that is as good as ones that other manufacturers have been making for decades. That doesn't make it a bad product but you do wonder why people say 'this is wonderful' instead of 'about time'.
 
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And I have spent all these years believing that the Linn bearing was excellent, due in part to the precision engineering expertise of Castle engineering; live and learn I suppose.
 
And I have spent all these years believing that the Linn bearing was excellent, due in part to the precision engineering expertise of Castle engineering; live and learn I suppose.
Mechanical engineering is a young discipline so further development is expected...
 


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