advertisement


New to me camera (well, back)

C

Cesare

pfm Member
On one of the other threads I mentioned that I had been contemplating getting a hasselblad 907x to use with my hasselblad cameras. This is a long term appealing thing, as it would mean that I keep using my hasselblad cameras that I love, but the downsides are the price, and the fact that the sensor size just isn't anywhere near 6x6, so my lenses will end up not so useful.

Anyhow, I recently decided to investigate the second hand market for these, in case some had started to pop up - I really do expect that various purchasers will decide it's not for them, and there will be some great examples on the second hand market at some point, at a hopefully more palatable price.

So rather than find any hasselblad backs, I realised that the prices on some of the digital backs for my mamiya had been dropping significantly, and one in particular caught my eye:

DSCF4277 by Cesare Ferrari, on Flickr

DSCF4278 by Cesare Ferrari, on Flickr

Now for those not in the know, the P65+ was a back produced in 2008 (well, announced, I don't think they shipped till 2009) which was the first full frame 645 camera back, so no crop factor compared to a 645 frame (although 645 sounds like it should be 6 x 4.5 cm, the film itself is 6cm wide, so there is some dead space either side of the frame for the film guides, and 645 ends up 54mm wide, and 40.5mm long to give the 4:3 aspect ratio).

This back has 60mp, a base ISO of 50, and takes around 1 frame a second. It's not going to worry any conventional DSLRs in the speed stakes. The ISO can be set from 50 to 800, and it also has a pixel binning mode, which groups 4 pixels into one, so you end up with 15mp and the ISO x4, so 200 to 3200.

The great thing about it is that the mamiya 645 I use (a 645 AFD) was designed with the expectation that you'd be slapping either film or digital backs on the camera, so the system behaves correctly - set the back to a given ISO, and the cameras light meter is adjusted correctly for example.

So what is it like to use? Well, so far, this being day 2 of ownership, i'm enjoying the experience. My usual goto 645 lenses (80 and 45mm) seem to behave exactly as i'd expect, and are giving great results. I didn't find anything particularly exciting to photograph, and anyhow I was more interested in fiddling with the camera today, but the take home points i've got so far are:

1) 60mp is more than I need. Keeping the camera steady enough for this is really tricky, it's basically tripod for ISO 50, but bumping up to ISO 200 doesn't hurt performance much as far as I can tell, so that's where i'm likely to be when not armed with a tripod.

2) The mamiya 645 autofocus is somewhat hit and miss, and i should probably look to see if there are any better focus screens available, like a split screen. I can't judge this with the default screen.

3) Capture one (the phase one owned/promoted editor) does a better job of converting their raw files than the alternatives i've tried. There appears to be a bug in Darktable when attempting to interpret P65+ pixel binned images, leading to odd banding in the image. I'm actually contemplating capture one for all my digital needs since i'm a long term Aperture holdout, and apple have finally really killed it off with the last OS update.

Anyhow, one picture to get things going from today:

CF032753 by Cesare Ferrari, on Flickr

It's uploaded as 60mp, but the embed doesn't seem to work for that, so maybe someone else can figure that out.

Anyhow, i've a feeling i'm going to have fun with this. Given they originally cost 40k, i'm not sure there's been many out and about in the field, with most staying put in studios.
 
Proper digital medium format! Great picture.

Just my opinion, but I don’t know how Fuji can call its system “medium format” when it’s really the APSC of the real thing.
 
Dalsa, who developed the sensor are very well known in industrial imaging, I use a lot of their cameras in my line of work, and they always perform well. Looks a great purchase, and you should get fantastic results
 
Mr Perceptive said:
Dalsa, who developed the sensor are very well known in industrial imaging, I use a lot of their cameras in my line of work, and they always perform well. Looks a great purchase, and you should get fantastic results
Click to expand...

Yes, I was having a look at various specs and trying to work out when the backs moved away from the Dalsa sensor for more modern Phase One backs. After the P series backs, which were all CCD they've moved to a combination of CCD and CMOS tech, but initially the CMOS was limited to the 44x33 50mp sensor (I think Kodak made this?) which appeared in a number of similar products. The IQ160 back, released in 2011 has the same specs as the P65+. Similarly the IQ260 from 2013 reads the same. Of course, there is likely to be years of advances in other areas of the back, not just the sensor itself, but i've a feeling the image quality is not really that different once you've got the files onto your computer.

The first full 645 frame CMOS sensor was the IQ1100MP released in 2016, and they seem to have settled onto that basic design for all of the IQ3 and above cameras, so full 645 frame, CMOS, and different numbers of pixels, but there is a 44x33 offering as well, I presume as it's much cheaper being a commodity sensor that everyone seems to be using.

Meanwhile, there is some confusion online as to when they dropped support for the older Mamiya 645AFD bodies. The more modern cameras are still pricey, and they dropped film back support at some point. Because of all this, i've a feeling IQ2 backs support the older bodies, but IQ3 don't. It'll be some time before I can afford those though, so I think i've gone the right way for now.

One other part i've just discovered is that tethered shooting isn't there with modern Capture One for firewire based cameras. I think the IQ1 and above are USB, so that's something I didn't know about. Saying that, there's probably other software which can work tethered with this camera, or an older version of Capture One will do it fine (might investigate grabbing a copy whilst it's still available).

Also, if you go to the Phase One website and register the back, you get a free license for Capture One with Phase One back support only, so that's a pretty good deal.
 
Cesare said:
Yes, I was having a look at various specs and trying to work out when the backs moved away from the Dalsa sensor for more modern Phase One backs. After the P series backs, which were all CCD they've moved to a combination of CCD and CMOS tech, but initially the CMOS was limited to the 44x33 50mp sensor (I think Kodak made this?) which appeared in a number of similar products. The IQ160 back, released in 2011 has the same specs as the P65+. Similarly the IQ260 from 2013 reads the same. Of course, there is likely to be years of advances in other areas of the back, not just the sensor itself, but i've a feeling the image quality is not really that different once you've got the files onto your computer.

The first full 645 frame CMOS sensor was the IQ1100MP released in 2016, and they seem to have settled onto that basic design for all of the IQ3 and above cameras, so full 645 frame, CMOS, and different numbers of pixels, but there is a 44x33 offering as well, I presume as it's much cheaper being a commodity sensor that everyone seems to be using.

Meanwhile, there is some confusion online as to when they dropped support for the older Mamiya 645AFD bodies. The more modern cameras are still pricey, and they dropped film back support at some point. Because of all this, i've a feeling IQ2 backs support the older bodies, but IQ3 don't. It'll be some time before I can afford those though, so I think i've gone the right way for now.

One other part i've just discovered is that tethered shooting isn't there with modern Capture One for firewire based cameras. I think the IQ1 and above are USB, so that's something I didn't know about. Saying that, there's probably other software which can work tethered with this camera, or an older version of Capture One will do it fine (might investigate grabbing a copy whilst it's still available).

Also, if you go to the Phase One website and register the back, you get a free license for Capture One with Phase One back support only, so that's a pretty good deal.
Click to expand...

It wouldn't surprise me if the Phase One sensors were Dalsa one's made under some kind of licence (I have been using Dalsa products for 25 years and they make a lot of stuff for other people), there are only a handful of companies capable of designing and fabricating large format sensors. Dalsa also make linescan sensors in 8K and 16K resolution and have an 86K 64x48mm sensor in one of their Falcon Cameras.

CCD does have some advantages over CMOS, one of the main reasons CMOS took over was the cost (and realtive ease of making such large sensors with no defective photo sites), the benefit main one is in edge sharpness (though this is lost slightly when a Bayer array is used as spatial resolution is not pixel accurate but in Monochrome its noticeable). In the early days of high resolution Kodak sensors (late 90's), you could buy industrial cameras in different grades, (1,2,3) where grade 1 had no defects, grade 2 and individual photosite defects and short row defects, and grade 3 has more significant row/column defects, you would get a map with the sensor showing where teh defective photo sites were!!!

You might be able to get Firewire to USB working with an external converter
 
Looks excellent! I bought a Phase One P45+ a few years back, and it has been excellent in combination with a Hasselblad H2. With a tripod, and filtration to keep the exposure range within 7-8 stops, the results are close to 4x5. I use the bomb-proof case to hold all the equipment I normally travel with, and the Capture One software is also very good. I haven't had any problems, but Phase One have always been very responsive to the various technical questions I've occasionally had. I'm not doing much photography at the moment, but I may upgrade the back when the time is right.
 
Mr Perceptive said:
It wouldn't surprise me if the Phase One sensors were Dalsa one's made under some kind of licence (I have been using Dalsa products for 25 years and they make a lot of stuff for other people), there are only a handful of companies capable of designing and fabricating large format sensors. Dalsa also make linescan sensors in 8K and 16K resolution and have an 86K 64x48mm sensor in one of their Falcon Cameras.

CCD does have some advantages over CMOS, one of the main reasons CMOS took over was the cost (and realtive ease of making such large sensors with no defective photo sites), the benefit main one is in edge sharpness (though this is lost slightly when a Bayer array is used as spatial resolution is not pixel accurate but in Monochrome its noticeable). In the early days of high resolution Kodak sensors (late 90's), you could buy industrial cameras in different grades, (1,2,3) where grade 1 had no defects, grade 2 and individual photosite defects and short row defects, and grade 3 has more significant row/column defects, you would get a map with the sensor showing where teh defective photo sites were!!!

You might be able to get Firewire to USB working with an external converter
Click to expand...

Do you also speak Swahili?
 
Very nice.

I've got a film Pentax 645 system with several lenses and have been contemplating getting one of the digital versions of it (either the 645D or the 645Z) but they are still fairly pricey. The D is 39.5MP and the Z 51.1MP - with the latter being quite a bit more advanced. Body only via Ebay it looks like I could get a D for about £1,500 from Japan compared to maybe £3,000+ for the Z. Tempting, but too many other things to spend money on at the moment!
 
You definitely need the bright focusing screen, the default Mamiya screen just isn't good enough. I find with a bright screen and manual focus lenses I can hit correct focus most of the time. I have a P30 on a Mamiya 645 body and it's the only digital camera system I use nowadays. It doesn't get a lot of use, I'm still 90% b&w medium and large format film, but this project was all shot using it, and my next project will use it too:

http://www.ianland.co.uk/paradise.html

Big prints from this look fantastic.
 
SteveG said:
Very nice.

I've got a film Pentax 645 system with several lenses and have been contemplating getting one of the digital versions of it (either the 645D or the 645Z) but they are still fairly pricey. The D is 39.5MP and the Z 51.1MP - with the latter being quite a bit more advanced. Body only via Ebay it looks like I could get a D for about £1,500 from Japan compared to maybe £3,000+ for the Z. Tempting, but too many other things to spend money on at the moment!
Click to expand...

MPB have a Z for £2,259
 
sideshowbob said:
You definitely need the bright focusing screen, the default Mamiya screen just isn't good enough. I find with a bright screen and manual focus lenses I can hit correct focus most of the time. I have a P30 on a Mamiya 645 body and it's the only digital camera system I use nowadays. It doesn't get a lot of use, I'm still 90% b&w medium and large format film, but this project was all shot using it, and my next project will use it too:

http://www.ianland.co.uk/paradise.html

Big prints from this look fantastic.
Click to expand...

Yes, i'm thinking the screen isn't up to it. There do seem to be a few available, not sure I understand which models are available but i'll investigate. I think it just assumes you are able to auto focus, so a split prism or microprism style would be my preference. Interestingly the ZD i've got came with a sort of flip to the side focus magnifier which looks a bit daft, but is actually really effective at fine tuning focus. I've not seen this on any other camera. I think what has happened in the MF world is the expectation of a live preview on the backs screen, so fancy focus aids don't appear to be a thing.
 
Cesare said:
Interestingly the ZD i've got came with a sort of flip to the side focus magnifier which looks a bit daft, but is actually really effective at fine tuning focus. I've not seen this on any other camera.
Click to expand...

I think the only cameras I've owned that had that were TLR's with waist level viewfinders. The Lubitel I still have in a cupboard somewhere definitely had and I think the Seagull I owned many years back also did.
 
I also have Aperture running on Big Sur, but it's buggy for me. I get all sorts of odd hangs and problems when full screen, with the previews turning up sometimes and not other times, so I think i'm ready for something a bit more stable.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.


advertisement


Back
Top