New Technics owners - anyone missing the sound from their old belt drive

[pickwickpapers]

I have a D/D 'table - and seem to hear any amount of pitch / tone instability which I mostly put down to recording / mastering equipment or record eccentricity.

 

[chartz]

No. Infinitely better for me.

 

[sonddek]

In response to Tony, I have a similar feeling about the Garrard 301s which I saved from a skip. They may have a touch more rumble than a Technics or a Sondek, but they produce some kind of musical magic that keeps them up there with the best. It is hard to define, but energy, drive and pitch stability on the sustained notes which accompany complex and dynamic music can be relied upon, and everything I play on them is a great pleasure.

I think Tony also touches the question of whether we want reproduction to be impeccable. Leslie's spinning horns show the lengths he went to in order to achieve the ululating sound Andalusian folk-song, and many singers use the technique of sliding up and down the scale rather than being confined to discrete notes. It's not impossible that some people actually like the effect of pitch instability. Perhaps it adds a bit of... ...mystery. it could even explain why some people prefer vinyl pkayback to digital.

 

[Simon s]

I bolted on my Ekos and threw in a Mike New bearing. Considering the deck had cost me £200 with a Rega RB300, I did not think spending £500 on a beautifully made bearing was going overboard.

At that point I compared it to a Klimax Sondek and felt that its noticeably better speed stability edged it ahead. My Technics was sporting a Dynavector XX-2 into Uphorik. Arguably the Sondek retrieved an iota more detail via Kandid/Urika but it was barely noticeable whereas the way the Technics delivered tunes and beats and sustained notes was well ahead, to my ears.

Thanks, thats really interesting and useful advice. Out of interest did you add the MN bearing and the Ekos in one go ? If not can you say what each change added to the sound of the deck - bearing and arm ?

I've been wondering for some time what the Naim aro would sound like on the Technics ?

 

[halvis]

All good stuff and thanks Sondek and Tony especially.

Whilst listening to the Technics concentration kept drifting, so i guess that is equivalent to not hunming.

I have had non suspended belt drive before - Rega P25 and Notts Interspace, but i didnt keep them long so that might be a bad sign.

Intrigued by Pink Triangle as a suspended belt drive that i believe are more neutral than pre Cirkus LP12s. I know they were not necessarily as reliable but there are still parts and people who service them around.

 

[sonddek]

Thanks, thats really interesting and useful advice. Out of interest did you add the MN bearing and the Ekos in one go ? If not can you say what each change added to the sound of the deck - bearing and arm?

I've been wondering for some time what the Naim aro would sound like on the Technics ?

I switched first from Rega RB300 to Ekos II. My recollection is that this change brought a little more clarity, detail and control, but perhaps not as much as the cost difference might justify. I had spent some time comparing different tightnesses of mounting nut on the RB300, on the advice of the very helpful proprietor of Origin Live, and concluded that it was a trade-off between dryness and detail. I recall that the Ekos was better than any variation of RB300, and the trade-off in various tightnesses of mounting screw on the Ekos was narrower but of similar effect.

I added the MN bearing later and can make no claim that it significantly bettered the stock bearing, but to this day I have still not modified the chassis with the stiffer bolts and brace supplied, so I can't claim to have heard the MN bearing at its theoretical best. I should investigate this issue further when I have time, but I suspect the stock bearing is very adequately engineered, knowing Technics, so I will need some time on my hands to go further. I'm sorry I can't provide more views on this question.

I can say that I have removed and reboxed power supplies from several SL-1200s and always concluded that they sounded very satisfactory afterwards, with what I suspect is improved channel separation, strangely, don't ask me why.

Please note that these are subjective impressions without reliable abx or instrument measurements, so please don't hold me to any of this - it could all be just in my imagination and there are always so many factors at play.

As regards bolting on a Naim ARO, do it - what've you got to lose? It should sound great.

 

[John]

I offered needledrops of my vintage Rega Planar 2 vs SL-1200, both with same cartridge, a Linn Klyde awhile back on the Steve Hoffman forum and the Rega won out. I preferred the Rega as well.

 

[sonddek]

Whilst listening to the Technics concentration kept drifting, so i guess that is equivalent to not hunming.

Amazing to hear you say this because I have noticed precisely the same effect. It's like you read my mind. I gave this effect some thought and came up with two conjectures:

1) pitch stability makes music less surprising, and therefore less interesting, for the same reasons that Mozart can be instantly forgettable, and computer-generated pseudo-Mozart fooled expert judges. See my comments above about Leslie and Seville.

2) correct-speed playback is what the musicians intended, and to make it as interesting as a subtle pattern of reactive speed variations you just need to pile in more detail, more dynamics, more drama, which will ultimately get you closer to the original performance. I believe my current system has achieved this to some extent and I can't wait for every opportunity to sit back and be entertained by any record on my SL-1210 without my concentration wandering.

I used to feel the same way about CDs btw, in that they did not retain my interest like vinyl did, which is why I consider (1) above. These days I'm happy listening to ripped .wavs through a DACMagic, whereas my Technics and Garrard have me on the edge of my seat.

Intrigued by Pink Triangle as a suspended belt drive that i believe are more neutral than pre Cirkus LP12s. I know they were not necessarily as reliable but there are still parts and people who service them around.

I have recently listened intently to very good needle drops of a PT to compare against my Technics/Supatrac and 301/Supatrac. Despite much cheaper cartridges on my decks, I think I can hear speed instability on the PT with the effect that the singer seems to sing a subtly different tune with a different mood. I find my needle drops more musically satisfying than the PT one even though they lose the timbre contest, because I believe they reveal the tune, harmonies, skill and musical intent in a more enjoyable way. They also sound punchier.

YMMV. As I said above, all that matters is enjoyment.

 

[Woodface]

A while ago I was listening to some jangly guitar music on my LP12, thought I could detect some pitch instability so I played the same track on my CD player & it sounded just the same in aspect. It was the effect I was hearing rather than pitch instability.

Sometimes with music you just hear what you want to hear.

 

[Subito]

Back in the day, a key criticism of DD turntables related to their servo-controlled DC motors that enabled them to achieve excellent wow & flutter specs. As I recall, flutter (the measured frequency wobble at 3 kHz) was heralded as a key strength compared to belt-driven turntables. DD turntables yielded excellent measured performance here because the servo corrections took place at a much higher frequency (around 7 kHz) than the measurement point. The downside was that platter speed, constantly ratcheting up and down at this higher frequency, yielded poorer audible performance. DD tables offered better speed accuracy than belt-driven tables, but worse speed constancy.

I remember an audition back in the Seventies between a Denon DD table, a Planar 3 and an LP12. The difference between the Denon and Rega was huge, more obvious than the gap between the Rega and Linn.

So I’m interested to see the resurgent popularity of DD tables such as the Technics models...are they doing something different with their servo controls?

 

[Woodface]

The main drawback for Technics TTs is how fugly they look. Only my opinion but I couldn’t have one in the house

 

[Nic Robinson]

The main drawback for Technics TTs is how fugly they look. Only my opinion but I couldn’t have one in the house

Have to say, I rather like the look. Classic and solid.

Beats some of the "hair shirt" amps and other kit looking like my dad made it in his shed I've had over the years tbh.

 

[Tony L]

I very much like the look of the 1200 MkII, it really is a design classic. Less keen on the 1210.

PS The blue LED strobe lamp on the modern variants is an abomination, a heresy, an act of treason against audio history, and just plain ugly. If I’d kept the G I’d have certainly found a way to replace it with the traditional yellow/orange colour.

 

[Simon s]

I switched first from Rega RB300 to Ekos II. My recollection is that this change brought a little more clarity, detail and control, but perhaps not as much as the cost difference might justify. I had spent some time comparing different tightnesses of mounting nut on the RB300, on the advice of the very helpful proprietor of Origin Live, and concluded that it was a trade-off between dryness and detail. I recall that the Ekos was better than any variation of RB300, and the trade-off in various tightnesses of mounting screw on the Ekos was narrower but of similar effect.

I added the MN bearing later and can make no claim that it significantly bettered the stock bearing, but to this day I have still not modified the chassis with the stiffer bolts and brace supplied, so I can't claim to have heard the MN bearing at its theoretical best. I should investigate this issue further when I have time, but I suspect the stock bearing is very adequately engineered, knowing Technics, so I will need some time on my hands to go further. I'm sorry I can't provide more views on this question.

I can say that I have removed and reboxed power supplies from several SL-1200s and always concluded that they sounded very satisfactory afterwards, with what I suspect is improved channel separation, strangely, don't ask me why.

Thanks for the info. As for the Aro, i just may give it a go. Would need to make a DIY armboard first.

I very much like the look of the 1200 MkII, it really is a design classic. Less keen on the 1210.

PS The blue LED strobe lamp on the modern variants is an abomination, a heresy, an act of treason against audio history, and just plain ugly. If I’d kept the G I’d have certainly found a way to replace it with the traditional yellow/orange colour.

I think there is a huge amount of nostalgia in how they look which brings back so many good memories from clubbing so i have no problem with how they look. But i hate the blue light and totally agree that they missed a trick there with the GR and G. On the Mk7 you can change the colour of the LED so its strange that they didn't give that option on the premium models ?

 

[deek]

That's my only criticism of the new G/GR models too. I've wrapped some narrow velcro tape around the strobe, which easily slides on/off to you can peak at the strobe light showing perfect speed.

It took me a while to appreciate the design and agree it's a design classic. I have no intention of upgrading the deck or replacing it.

I still own and enjoy a Planar 3 (the first variant) in a different system.

 

[k90tour]

I've had an LP12 (basic set up from 1989), Gyro SE/SME iv and now a stock Technics 1200G with AT 09. The Technics is so much better for me. Everything does sound a little less warm and distant. (I'm listen exclusively to classical) but I do hear more. And so much better on piano. I have a theory about many of the warmer items of kit that I've swapped out. The warmth is a product of fluff. Flatters the sound without digging anything more out of the grooves.

 

[Woodface]

Have to say, I rather like the look. Classic and solid.

Beats some of the "hair shirt" amps and other kit looking like my dad made it in his shed I've had over the years tbh.

I don’t like the DJ style decks in terms of appearance but don’t doubt their build quality

 

[Tony L]

I don’t like the DJ style decks in terms of appearance but don’t doubt their build quality

I just look at it as a hifi deck DJs started to use rather than a DJ deck. The MkI above was introduced as a pretty high-end hi-fi deck (around 2-3x the price of an LP12 IIRC!). The MkII ups the damping, the MkI has a very resonant plastic base, plus it adds a big pitch slider rather than the two knobs.

PS Studio 54 used Thorens TD125s!

 

[Woodface]

I just look at it as a hifi deck DJs started to use rather than a DJ deck. The MkI above was introduced as a pretty high-end hi-fi deck (around 2-3x the price of an LP12 IIRC!). The MkII ups the damping, the MkI has a very resonant plastic base, plus it adds a big pitch slider rather than the two knobs.

PS Studio 54 used Thorens TD125s!

It looks better than the more recent ones but still horrible IMHO.

 

[Robert]

As stated elsewhere I lasted literally one evening with an SL1200G (the £2.5k one). I just had that sinking feeling as soon as I stuck it in as whilst it was objectively superb (silent, great pitch etc) it just sounded totally dead in the water. It just didn’t sing/communicate. I stuck the TD-124 back in and Dexter Gordon was alive again. I can’t explain it beyond having a feeling it is far more to do with mass and damping than drive mechanism. The 124 has a laughably poor noise floor compared to the Technics, and whilst I never notice any pitch instability at all (mine has the vastly superior iron sub-platter, I never got on with the light alloy one, it just sounds ‘vague’ by comparison), I’m sure the Technics would murder it on specification as it is basically perfect, or as close as one can achieve with vinyl replay.

The 124 has obvious flaws; it rumbles a little (I have very full-range speakers, so can hear just a hint between tracks) and as with all ancient machinery takes a little time to warm up to speed and needs ongoing servicing (I hate modern 124 drive belts with a passion, they are all wrong in some way). As such it becomes a hobby in itself, but the thing sounds bloody great! It really communicates. Put a really well recorded similar vintage jazz album on and it is clear we have learned next to nothing in the past 50 years. The 124 just sounded so much better to my taste/priorities I just boxed the 1200 up and accepted I’d made a mistake that would cost me some real money. Even so it was a useful evening as it gave me a highly respected modern benchmark to compare my ongoing 124 restoration against. I’m now far more confident with my choices.

I’m sure the 1200 could be improved with mats, feet and countless other tweaks, maybe significantly, but we are talking a close to 1966 spec 124/3009 here! Carts were a 2M Black and 540/II. I even used the same arm lead once I realised the extent to which I preferred the 124 to rule that out (my 3009 has been modded with the later SME RCA armbase, my arm lead is vdH 501).

PS FWIW I still love the idea of direct drive as it is just the most logical way to drive a turntable by far, so I’d be curious to try something like a Trio L07D, Micro Seiki DDX, Pioneer Exclusive or whatever. I’d actually like to hear an old JBE slate as that looks like quite a sensible way to make a record deck. They are one of those quirky outsiders that if a mint boxed SME cut one landed on eBay for £200 or so I’d likely take a punt!

David Price agrees with you on the JBE