If it were 30k, of course not. But it isn't. Nothing like that. The costs are different for these cars. The "fuel" is almost free . The vehicle isn't. So you end up with a car that costs little more to cover 30k miles a year than it does to cover 5k.
New Porsche Cayman....6 pot and No Turbo!!!
- Thread starter andyoz
- Start date
Lithium mines aren’t exactly environmentally friendly. If you want to be an eco warrior the best thing you can do is walk.
sean99
pfm Member
True that, but once mined the lithium can be recycled almost indefinitely. Unlike oil.
clivem2
pfm Member
And not just lithium. Other rare earth minerals for the electric motors. When we go headlong into EVs they will need to mine the sea bed and destroying the oceans.
I'm not sure I believe you. It's not as if an electric motor is a new idea.
martin clark
pinko bodger
It's not; and it turns out 'rare earth' is a bit of a misnomer that was true when, for example, Yttrium was only discovered at Ytterby in Sweden - and that was a long time ago.
We're not short of sources for the necessary; and once mined, they are recyclable. Primary sources of renewable energy are the key to this - and the last 15yrs have proved incredible in terms of growth on that front.
It's got to be better than drilling for the most amazing complex hydrocarbons that even the Shah of Iran once described as 'too valuable to burn' . And that conception is true - Humanity will demand the use of oil derivatives for centuries to come - simply for the amazing complex and derivative organic chemistries 'oil' facilitates; just not when wasted as a primary fuel.
We're not short of sources for the necessary; and once mined, they are recyclable. Primary sources of renewable energy are the key to this - and the last 15yrs have proved incredible in terms of growth on that front.
It's got to be better than drilling for the most amazing complex hydrocarbons that even the Shah of Iran once described as 'too valuable to burn' . And that conception is true - Humanity will demand the use of oil derivatives for centuries to come - simply for the amazing complex and derivative organic chemistries 'oil' facilitates; just not when wasted as a primary fuel.
The current ways of powering it are; lithium, cobalt etc.
NeilR
pfm Member
if the world is serious about climate change, then indeed this sort of activity needs to stop. However, it will have to come from a younger generation as the PFM generation is a lost cause as this age group simply won’t change the habits of a lifetime. Hopefully it won’t be too late by then.
Which activity? The kind of car ownership that sees the car being driven at weekends only, maybe 1000 miles a year, or the kind of car ownership where the car does 15-20k a year, a lot of it on tick over outside schools and hospitals etc. I'm sure there is a place for interesting cars on limited mileages without the kind of Draconian approach you seem to be suggesting.
I read that the youth of today are not so interested in driving anyway, so your wish may partially be granted.
NeilR
pfm Member
unfortunately it isnt just 1000km per year for many big cars though. Let me give you an example. The owner of the business park where our company is based is an older guy who drives powerful cars. He owns a merc S63 AMG coupe and a bentley and commutes every day to work in one or other car. He just replaced his bentley with a new car. It would have been a fantastic opportunity to buy say a new Taycan EV, But no, he just bought another Bentley. He basically doesn’t care.
his daughter recently got a GLC63 AMG and commutes from the Luceren area each day so about a 200km round trip each day. She basically doesn’t care. And on it goes...
Yes, as discussed at the top of the page. I was replying to 105 which suggested the motors themselves used rare minerals, which I doubt. There are after all many millions of electric motors in the world. My diesel car alone has more than 10 that I can think of, there must be dozens in the house.
clivem2
pfm Member
Did you miss the recent news item about tests of robotic harvesters to find out what damage they do? It's the sheer quantity of minerals needed if and when EVs really scale. Here's just one of many articles
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02242-y
Also
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episo...ld-digging-up-the-seabed-help-save-the-planet
Yeah but that falls squarely into the second example I gave. Rich people that are able to treat exotica as daily drivers.
My car, as an example, has done nearer 500 than 1000 miles by its previous owners in each of the last six years. I can't see me doing much more than 1000 miles a year whilst it's in my garage.
I also own a horrible diesel which will be going in July and my commute will be by bus and bike, which provides me further justification to not feel bad about the other car.
Agreed. We need to find another storage method to avoid the pillaging of Africa, not to mention the abuse of the people dying to mine the elements.
clivem2
pfm Member
https://roskill.com/news/rare-earths-tesla-extends-ev-range-using-permanent-magnets/
Trying to reduce the amount or rare earth elements used...do they are used.
https://www.autoblog.com/2018/02/20/toyota-ev-motor-rare-earth-metal/
They are used in windmills too.
A seat motor shouldn't need exotic minerals. The EV traction motor probably does. Cuts weight, improves efficiency.
clivem2
pfm Member
Ok, I found this
The Porsche Taycan is powered by two permanent magnetic synchronous electric motors, or PMSMs. Unlike AC induction motors used in some other electric vehicles like the Tesla Model S (though it and the Model 3 also use a permanent magnet motor), PMSMs utilize rare-earth magnets embedded into a rotor (which is what the output shaft is connected to) to create a permanent magnetic field. This spins in sync with a stator’s (as shown in our look at a torn-down Model 3, a stator is just the “pipe”-shaped stationary bit of the electric motor consisting of a bunch of copper windings) rotating magnetic field, which is created by the sinusoidal AC input from the inverter, a device that turns DC power from the battery to AC power for the motor.
By contrast, an AC induction motors’ rotor doesn’t include rare-earth magnets, and instead consists of windings. As the inverter sends AC current to the stator and creates a rotating magnetic field, that magnetic field induces a current in the rotor windings, which creates a magnetic field. That rotor’s magnetic field interacts with that of the stator, and the rotor spins, yielding mechanical torque. It’s called “asynchronous” because the rotor lags behind the rotating magnetic field in the stator—a phenomenon called “slip.”
The advantages of the permanent magnet design, Porsche mentions in the slide below, include high efficiency—particularly at the low and middle speed range—smaller size, and better cooling capability, though at a slightly elevated price point.
Even Elon Musk has talked about AC induction motors’ cooling limitations, which Porsche powertrain manager Dr. Boyke Richter says are a result of the rotor requiring current, which creates heat that’s difficult to remove.
“This limits the repeatability of the electric machine,” he said. He also went on to mention how important size was, saying: “With the same power and torque level, the asynchronous machine is always a little bit bigger.”
you're putting a lot of things together there and assuming a link. EVs, rare earth magnets, neodymium, sea mining. EVs use Nd magnets. So do lots of other motors, including loudspeakers. Nd isn't mined at sea but on land. Unless you can establish a link and evidence that it's a significant contribution to global Nd use, all I'm seeing is a series of things that happen to coincide.
blossomchris
I feel better than James Brown
It will be, but didn't we have a good time I hear them say choking back the foul air and struggling to keep afloat in their metal machines.
Bloss