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National Socialist Black Metal - how is it still tolerated?

Dave***t said:
One of the reasons I got pissed off with Roon was that it kept suggesting Graveland to me. Clearly one of the 4 or so black metal listeners its big data approach is based on quite likes them.

And I’d forgotten that about Transilvanian Hunger -‘this is beyond criticism and anyone who tries should be patronised for this obviously Jewish behaviour’ or something like that, IIRC?
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I quite like the early Graveland stuff. In the Glare of Burning Churches is decent and Thousand Swords is a great black metal album. Neither of which have any racist or nationalist socialist lyrics. The Creed of Iron album where he changes the style and theme is great as well. It has the song White Beasts of Wotan on it, lyrically there's not actually much racist about it other than the title. Personally I couldn't care less, I like the music. Thematically it's nonsense to me much in the same way as when they are singing about satan etc and Rob Darken is a cretin but it doesn't detract from my enjoyment of the music.

I still don't understand the moral compass picking and choosing of what is acceptable here. Why is the issue are the band members "racist" but there is not a mention of why is it ok to have songs about killing Christians? etc Not to mention 3 of the most famous black metal bands have members who have been in jail for murder. That doesn't even seem to raise an eyebrow but sing about pagan history and it's full blown "won't somebody please think of the children"
 
Mullardman said:
Yep. That's true. I lost interest in almost everything which might come under the heading of 'metal' or 'heavy rock' many many years ago.. apart from some residual interest in some of the pioneers, ranging from the Kinks through Hendrix, Cream, etc.
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Here’s a introduction manual.


Here’s another.

Basically heavy metal has got way, way more technical since the burped-up culturally appropriated blues-rock of Cream etc. I view Hendrix more as jazz!


Rabea Massaad is always worth a listen too in order to get a handle of just how far hard-rock/metal has moved over 50 years or so. It isn’t my genre, but some of the best musicians playing today exist here. Just crazy complex music!
 
I think if someone is requiring a guilt free guide to black metal it's quite clear black metal isn't for them.
I've only heard of one of those bands listed and I'm pretty sure the rest won't even come close to the quality of the classics made by all the murdering, church burning, racists zoomers back in the day.

"safe" black metal bands?! Might as well just go back to the days of Tipper Gore and the PMRC at this rate.

Anyway I'm away to listen to Det Som Engang Var by Burzum, which doesn't actually contain a single word that could be considered racist, however, does contain many a song about dungeons and orcs written by a nazi loving looney.
 
White Zombie said:
I think if someone is requiring a guilt free guide to black metal it's quite clear black metal isn't for them.
I've only heard of one of those bands listed and I'm pretty sure the rest won't even come close to the quality of the classics made by all the murdering, church burning, racists zoomers back in the day.

"safe" black metal bands?! Might as well just go back to the days of Tipper Gore and the PMRC at this rate.

Anyway I'm away to listen to Det Som Engang Var by Burzum, which doesn't actually contain a single word that could be considered racist, however, does contain many a song about dungeons and orcs written by a nazi loving looney.
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Yeah, wanting a list like that to written could be seen as a bit like wanting a list of punk bands for people who are broadly chuffed with society. If you want it, you just don’t get it.

Though in this case if you’re on the ‘what a ridiculous list’ side it’s mostly the messenger who should be shot, metaphorically speaking - nobody asked to be on the list, and I expect few of them would take being called safe as a compliment in any sense, possibly other than not being Nazis.

My reason for posting the link is less to endorse the article or acts and more about responding to the thread title question by highlighting that BM ≠ agreeing, even tacitly, with NS.
 
Sorry wasn't meaning to sound like I was having a go at you Dave.

Just looking at that website the article is on sums up everything I could be doing without. Folk preaching what's allowed and what isn't, what's morally ok and what they're quite happy to turn a blind eye to. An issue I've mentioned throughout this thread and the Clapton one.

My view will always be love the art not the artist. As an adult that isn't remotely racist, sexist, homophobic etc I'm more than capable of working out which musician, author, film director etc is a cu*t, I don't need guilt tripped into not being allowed to be a fan of their work. Which is why I listen to some of these black metal bands, old Eric, and the hundreds of rock musicians who seem to get a free pass for having sex with 14 years old girls when they were in their 20s with a clear conscience :)
 
Dave***t said:
A mate sent me a link to this article on definitely-not-NS-BM which could either be seen as a ridiculous sign of the ridiculous times, or as refreshing and reassuring, depending on your take (a couple of the reader comments are amusingly polarised).

But I thought it was interesting in the context of this thread, either way.

https://astralnoizeuk.com/2021/08/24/curating-resistance-a-guilt-free-guide-to-black-metal/
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English Heritage Black Metal is a new one on me. Do they serve cream teas at the gigs? :)
 
White Zombie said:
Sorry wasn't meaning to sound like I was having a go at you Dave.

Just looking at that website the article is on sums up everything I could be doing without. Folk preaching what's allowed and what isn't, what's morally ok and what they're quite happy to turn a blind eye to. An issue I've mentioned throughout this thread and the Clapton one.

My view will always be love the art not the artist. As an adult that isn't remotely racist, sexist, homophobic etc I'm more than capable of working out which musician, author, film director etc is a cu*t, I don't need guilt tripped into not being allowed to be a fan of their work. Which is why I listen to some of these black metal bands, old Eric, and the hundreds of rock musicians who seem to get a free pass for having sex with 14 years old girls when they were in their 20s with a clear conscience :)
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No worries.

I straddle the lines in an entirely arbitrary way - I still listen to old Burzum etc, but would likely disregard new-to-me NS stuff on political grounds regardless of the sonics. But then I also enjoy something newer-ish like Kult Ofensivy’s Radikalni Ateismus despite it being a bit aesthetically whiffy, possibly because I’ve not seen anything actively NS from them.

But retrospectively finding out someone was cruising 14 year olds at the time would put me off, even when someone going on to be a murderer doesn’t sour the stuff I listened to before they did it/I found out.

And I spose it’s fair to mention in the same context that I can listen to Woven Hand and even find the curious religious atmosphere compelling despite generally being opposed to the religion it stems from.

So in the end, entirely arbitrary, haha!
 
Tony L said:

Here’s a introduction manual.


Here’s another.

Basically heavy metal has got way, way more technical since the burped-up culturally appropriated blues-rock of Cream etc. I view Hendrix more as jazz!


Rabea Massaad is always worth a listen too in order to get a handle of just how far hard-rock/metal has moved over 50 years or so. It isn’t my genre, but some of the best musicians playing today exist here. Just crazy complex music!
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The singer out of Slipknot went to Rome to see the Pope...
 
I owned a box set of CDs by Maurizio Bianchi, first disc was Symphony Of A Genocide, tracks are named from the
concentration camps the Nazi used to carry out the genocide on Jews, Gypsies, Russian POW, and even German Jews
that fought for Germany in WW1.

The track names are just titles, nothing more.

I find listening to Symphony Of A genocide quite disturbing when thinking about what the track title are so for me
it’s a experience and it’s a edgy, uncomfortable listen and the titles are part of the experience. It’s quite intense.

Sorry, that’s the best way I can describe why I listen to it…….
 
eevo1969 said:
The track names are just titles, nothing more.
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Clearly they aren't 'just titles'. In the context of the disc title, they clearly reference specific events/locations..

eevo1969 said:
I find listening to Symphony Of A genocide quite disturbing when thinking about what the track title are so for me
it’s a experience and it’s a edgy, uncomfortable listen and the titles are part of the experience. It’s quite intense.
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I can imagine...

Please don't think I'm being critical of you here. What you describe sounds like an artwork designed to provoke a response to the Genocide, and there's nothing wrong with that, so long as the artist doesn't expect the Genocide to be condoned or glorified.

My wife has some sort of morbid fascination with genocide and the Holocaust. She would watch anything, fact or fiction, describing those appalling events. It got to the point where I had to tell her in no uncertain terms that I was sick of it.

I get it. I am sickened by it, I understand what happened, I've seen all of the horror and read more than a few books. I'm convinced and I would never minimise or dismiss what occurred. So..it is not me who needs to be educated or convinced, and me re-living it all vicariously serves no purpose other than to sicken me more... So I'll pass thanks.
 
Of course there is also metal (on Napalm) that is the complete opposite of any NS associations.


They seem to be going down a storm in the US as well.
 
eevo1969 said:
I owned a box set of CDs by Maurizio Bianchi, first disc was Symphony Of A Genocide, tracks are named from the
concentration camps the Nazi used to carry out the genocide on Jews, Gypsies, Russian POW, and even German Jews
that fought for Germany in WW1.

The track names are just titles, nothing more.

I find listening to Symphony Of A genocide quite disturbing when thinking about what the track title are so for me
it’s a experience and it’s a edgy, uncomfortable listen and the titles are part of the experience. It’s quite intense.

Sorry, that’s the best way I can describe why I listen to it…….
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Maurizio Bianchi is an avowed anti-fascist, and the back cover of the original LP you are talking about says, "The moral of this work: the past punishment is the inevitable blindness of the present". Nigel Ayers, who released it on his Sterile Records label is an anarchist and has a long and honourable history of anti-fascism. That LP is a case of using uncomfortable imagery and sound to critique fascism, not to glorify it.

Bianchi was spectacularly badly treated by the execrable Bill Bennett of Come Org (who is very happy to consort with actual fascists; even if he himself isn't one he is a fellow traveller of some truly obnoxious people). Bennett messed with MBs work and released it with changes that overturned its anti-fascist intent:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurizio_Bianchi

I used to be well into this scene at the time it was all originally released, and knew a lot of the people involved. Some of them were certainly fascists, or moving ever more in that direction, and that's partly why I completely broke with that whole scene.
 
Mullardman said:
Clearly they aren't 'just titles'. In the context of the disc title, they clearly reference specific events/locations..



I can imagine...

Please don't think I'm being critical of you here. What you describe sounds like an artwork designed to provoke a response to the Genocide, and there's nothing wrong with that, so long as the artist doesn't expect the Genocide to be condoned or glorified.

My wife has some sort of morbid fascination with genocide and the Holocaust. She would watch anything, fact or fiction, describing those appalling events. It got to the point where I had to tell her in no uncertain terms that I was sick of it.

I get it. I am sickened by it, I understand what happened, I've seen all of the horror and read more than a few books. I'm convinced and I would never minimise or dismiss what occurred. So..it is not me who needs to be educated or convinced, and me re-living it all vicariously serves no purpose other than to sicken me more... So I'll pass thanks.
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I’m not sure if you are joking or not?
 
sideshowbob said:
I used to be well into this scene at the time it was all originally released, and knew a lot of the people involved. Some of them were certainly fascists, or moving ever more in that direction, and that's partly why I completely broke with that whole scene.
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It's also the reason I tend to give it a wide berth - aside from the ridiculousness of a whole scene based on white European males screaming about how awful life is...*

My understanding is that MB was/is very much aligned with Italian far left/anarchist politics. I'm friendly with someone who has collaborated with him and I trust his judgement.

* watch a few Whitehouse live videos - I"m pretty sure they've consciously moved into self-parody.
 
eevo1969 said:
I’m not sure if you are joking or not?
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I don't joke about the Holocaust, or Genocide.

I think we may have crossed wires. You seem to get something out of listening to 'Symphony of a Genocide', by which I am in no way implying that you are anything other than appalled by the whole episode.
I was simply explaining that anything which further reminds me of the Holocaust/Genocide is off my viewing and listening list, for the reasons I outlined.
 
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