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National Socialist Black Metal - how is it still tolerated?

Discussion in 'music' started by paulfromcamden, Aug 6, 2021.

  1. paulfromcamden

    paulfromcamden Baffled

    My Facebook feed has just shown me an ad for the new Watain album on Nuclear Blast. The name rang a bell so I had a quick google.

    Surprise, surprise - they've been been dogged by allegations of anti-semitism and links to neo-nazis. They've worn (NSBM band) Absurd t-shirts, the guitarist left after being photographed giving nazi salutes and they've put out records on Drakkar Productions - known for releasing openly NSBM bands.


    How is any of this still acceptable? Why are well respected labels like Nuclear Blast putting this crap out? Why are ESP guitars sponsoring it? I don't get it.

    I'm afraid I long ago gave up on Black Metal altogether - every band I stumbled upon seemed to have a guitarist that was in a band with a load of nazis or was on a label that put out nazis or they toured with nazis. Sigh.

    PFM metalheads - what's your take?
  2. JensenHealey

    JensenHealey pfm Member

    You wonder (well, I do) how the Facebook algorithm worked out that you might be interested in such a thing.

    Unrelated but similar - I was perusing Facebook marketplace ads for some stone copings to repair some old garden walling... the suggested ad following those - was a fat bird in Birmingham selling some dodgy looking lingerie.... how is that related? It was quite amusing - even showed it to the wife.
  3. wezzywest

    wezzywest pfm Member

    NAZI SCUM. **** EM.
    Nytechy and aedagnino like this.
  4. paulfromcamden

    paulfromcamden Baffled

    My guess would be cookies left by a metal website.
  5. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    If it is an actual paid ad report it as a breach. I doubt Facebook would knowingly sell advertising to racist/fascist bands.

    PS I block/report any sponsored right-wing/nationalist content and unfriend people who spam it. I just don’t want to be viewing it.
    Nytechy likes this.
  6. Seeker_UK

    Seeker_UK Booyakashah, check out my avatar...

    They're a bit of a complex outfit and labelling them as NSBM or neo-Nazis is too simplistic -

    My reading is they're out to shock and provide the usual "F**k You World" narrative of Black Metal and to do that they have adopted some nasty symbology and practices.

    You could have made the same arguments about Throbbing Gristle, Siouxsie and the Banshees, Joy Division, Laibach...
    Dave Decadent likes this.
  7. paulfromcamden

    paulfromcamden Baffled

    Already reported. I very much doubt Facebook will do anything as these bands are relatively mainstream, repeatedly claim it's all a fuss about nothing and seem to be just seen as 'controversial'.
  8. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    That is a very valid point. I know nothing about this band/genre so have no idea as to where they stand on the map.
  9. Seeker_UK

    Seeker_UK Booyakashah, check out my avatar...

    If you read the Wikipedia article, the bass player provided this answer when asked about the T-Shirt & Nazi salute:

    "NSBM is a joke, a despaired approach of people who're incapable to comprehend the perversion and the insanity of Black Metal. They're trying to appear extreme and limit their selves in their conception to that kind of society, which describes something that we wouldn't care less about. F*** the world! Black Metal doesn't have anything to do with the world like you know it."

    It could be that they got called out and were backpedalling furiously but that was in 2006 and it seems little else has happened since then WRT far-right politics.
  10. paulfromcamden

    paulfromcamden Baffled

    I certainly find a lot of the 'shock value' (yawn) nazi imagery used by 80s industrial/power electronics outfits unacceptable. Though I kind of see a difference between teenage Philip Best putting out a tape and calling it 'White Power' (fvckwitted as that was) and grown middle-aged men who have been using the same clapped out 'edgy' schtick for decades.

    The noise/industrial scene also seems to be now calling out dodgy nazis - see Skullflower.
    sideshowbob likes this.
  11. Seeker_UK

    Seeker_UK Booyakashah, check out my avatar...

    I forgot to include Whitehouse and Boyd Rice in that list as well.

    I think your concern that Watain have slipped NSBM onto a major label and onto Facebook is unfounded. They're just playing with it all, as stupid as it may seem.
  12. paulfromcamden

    paulfromcamden Baffled

    It's a more general question that I'm asking. There's a whole spectrum of dodgyness from a few 'controversial' racist/antisemitic comments made in an interview to out and out NSBM bands (good guide - have their records been banned from sale on Discogs).

    It's like Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon - every other band seems to have some connection to a dodgy racist. Why?
  13. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    I was always uneasy with it with Joy Division/New Order (both names Nazi terminology) and don’t see how it fitted with their music at all. I suspect they just got trapped in the whole ‘piss off your parents’ thing of punk where such imagery was used purely to gain a reaction. I see Coum Transmissions/Throbbing Gristle as very different as that was really its own thing and exists far more in a ‘serious’ performance art realm than pop/rock. A remarkably extreme one at that.
    Seeker_UK and paulfromcamden like this.
  14. Seeker_UK

    Seeker_UK Booyakashah, check out my avatar...

    There's a lot of dodgy racists about?

    We're oversensitive and see dodgy racists and fascists everywhere?

    We hold our musicians to higher standards than we did before?

    We worry too much, it's only music?

    I really don't know.
  15. paulfromcamden

    paulfromcamden Baffled

    I thought this was a thoughtful piece.

    Does metal — specifically black metal — have a Nazi problem? Yes. Is it complicated? Also yes. While there are genuine neo-Nazis lurking within the scene, most bands that fall under the “National Socialist Black Metal” (NSBM) tag aren’t dreaming of Hitler specifically; the semi-subgenre is a haven for of white supremacist, white nationalist, fascist, racist, anti-Semitic, misogynist, homophobic, transphobic, Islamophobic, and otherwise bigoted viewpoints, but calling them all “Nazis” is an oversimplification.
    2_dive likes this.
  16. Seeker_UK

    Seeker_UK Booyakashah, check out my avatar...

    A lot of their fans, though, didn't get it and saw it as political rather than art statement. ISTR reading Gen looking out to the audience at one gig and saw them all wearing camo and the black / white / red flash armband.
  17. Woodface

    Woodface pfm Member

    Do grownups listen to black metal?
    Mullardman, Bob McC and ciderglider like this.
  18. White Zombie

    White Zombie pfm Member

    You separate the art from the artist. I like the music of Burzum, Emperor, Dissection, Mayhem, etc all full of a good few reprehensible characters.

    If I was to start listening to music based on who I would share a drink with in a pub, I'd be seriously limiting my options.
    Waxy likes this.
  19. paulfromcamden

    paulfromcamden Baffled

    Depends what you mean - I'm middle aged but I'm not sure I pass as a grownup ;)
    White Zombie and Woodface like this.
  20. Bob McC

    Bob McC Living the life of Riley

    I always knew that Spandau Ballet were bad uns.

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