I guess there is beauty (in the eye of the beholder) and there is also good/great design...
Name a 'beautiful' amplifier.
- Thread starter Rockmeister
- Start date
I guess there is beauty (in the eye of the beholder) and there is also good/great design...
Rockmeister
pfm Member
Qui judicat in veritate iudices?
(If you can't be bothered....'who judges the judges').
(If you can't be bothered....'who judges the judges').
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tuga
Legal Alien
How do you judge good/great design?
How accurately it reproduces the signal (universal - measurements) or whether or not you (but maybe not me) like how it sounds (subjective - in the ear of the beholder)?
Tony L
Administrator
Function, design, ergonomics, performance, reliability, serviceability, longevity. Genuinely good products have all these factors pretty much equally. One can learn far more about this subject by looking at the sort of kit that is now so sought-after and collectable than obsessing on a spec or test sheet. It takes way, way more than a simple flat line on a graph for something to be hugely desirable decades later or even half a century on. The flavour of the month always ends up in landfill.
tuga
Legal Alien
It makes sense to take those things on board as well, I was thinking more about the circuit/layout and its relation with performance.
In my view the "classic" desirability is often myth/hype- and nostalgia-driven but if it keeps stuff from ending up in landfill then I'm all for it. Research and development keeps the pushing performance envelope in every area and audio is no different. But we all have our preferences and that is fine; perhaps audio is different in that sense because these days no one is still watching films in VHS...
Rockmeister
pfm Member
Planned obsolescence?
Makes me wonder if manufacturers don’t make this stuff deliberately...you make more if you sell more after all? Who now want’s a product that will be as good and as beautiful (timeless appeal) in 30 years time? Do peeps now think beyond 30 days even?
Makes me wonder if manufacturers don’t make this stuff deliberately...you make more if you sell more after all? Who now want’s a product that will be as good and as beautiful (timeless appeal) in 30 years time? Do peeps now think beyond 30 days even?
tuga
Legal Alien
All hobbies thrive on consumerism. It's as much their fault as it is ours. The audio "press" is the cherry on top of the cake, they instill desire through advertising masked as sensible reporting; video reviews have shown that professional audio critique is not too different from teleshopping these days...
tuga
Legal Alien
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
Think of it as 'technical' design, and 'industrial' design. The industrial design is the 'form follows function' stuff - how aesthetically pleasing and functional can the object be. This may be influenced by technical considerations - the object may need to be a certain size, or shape, for example, but the two can, when things go right, complement each other.
Joe Hutch
Mate of the bloke
But hasn't that always been the case? In the late '60s/early '70s very few people wanted valve amps, partly because they were seen as old-fashioned, and everyone was buying Japanese amps with lots of knobs and buttons. They themselves went out of favour, in the UK at least, when flat-earth minimalism ruled, and tone controls were seen as the work of Satan. Then multiple boxes fell out of favour, and all-in-one units re-emerged.
Then you have the 'retro' thing. When I was in my teens, the fashions of the 1920s were in vogue. More recently, '70s designs were rediscovered, and now we seem to be on a '50s kick. So something that was rejected as old-fashioned can suddenly become hugely desirable.
Fashions change, not just in clothes, but in interior decoration and industrial design.
I assumed this thread was about aesthetic design, looking at most of the comments. I would judge similar to any design, cars, motorcycles, bicycles, watches, cameras, household appliances, tools etc. It also helps if you have a background in design, as you know what to look for.
Rockmeister
pfm Member
Yes, good points, I have to keep remembering the 'we are all different consumers' thing, and makers follow the market. Not sure about the 50's tho...I think engineers followed the new technology in the belief of a better sound, but that's what we want. I don't think the design aesthetics were driven in quite that way (except as americanism crept in).
It IS about aesthetics. The design of a circuit has nought to do with it at all. And frankly, although we all like to have an opinion on beauty, I doubt there are 20 here who would want a pub chat on the beauty of a circuit layout.
Cereal Killer
432
Product design is holistic not just aesthetic
tuga
Legal Alien
Ok, looks then. It wasn't clear to me.
Rockmeister
pfm Member
yes, I know, pretty much every manufactured product involves different design aspects. Not all are given top priority at the design stage. This thread was about the beauty of what had traditionally been seen mainly as an useful product whose main purpose is to deliver sound to the home. With an aesthetic nod. Maybe. I wondered who found that nod appealing.
I thought this was clear by now. For the record I did a brief course on product design my self, so have some understanding of the way design disciplines must work together.
Rockmeister
pfm Member
Sorry...if this is a wind up, I missed it lol
Tony L
Administrator
Amplifier design is a mature technology. Distortion had been pushed down to inaudible levels way back in the 1940s and 50s. The only real developments in audio in my lifetime have been in digital audio. That is undeniable and has led to whole new opportunities, and can thankfully be integrated into any system of any age. Amplifiers and speakers are very slow moving, e.g. a late-50s pair of Quad II power amps driving ESLs is still better than anything you can find in most hi-fi shops today. People obsess over the tiniest differences because the concept of ‘new’ is so hyped-up by people with vested interests looking to sell you stuff.
The raw technology that has changed in amplifier design over the past 70 years are most obviously the shift from valves to solid state, then the move to switch-mode solid state with embedded digital frippery. That brought some gains in efficiency (a class D amp uses vastly less power than a class A valve amp) and convenience (lazy fat people like remote controls etc), but from a measurement perspective the performance was way below the level of audible distortion then, and it still is today. Meh. Speakers have moved forward far more slowly, largely hindered by the fashion/style insistence of too small to work sizes. As such distortion levels are likely higher now as ever-smaller drivers are being asked for ever-greater cone excursion (which always brings distortion).
The most depressing thing is this shift towards convenience and style trends has led to a market full of unserviceable crap that tends only to last a few years, maybe a decade tops. Useless unwanted junk that ends up in landfill at exactly the time the whole planet is facing a climate disaster. It really is time to start thinking outside the mass consumption box and grasping that accepting planned obsolescence is the responsibility of the buyer as well as the manufacturer. I chose to reject it.
Rockmeister
pfm Member
I agree but most of that Tony isn't common knowledge, and certainly not a promotion tagline (built to last). An odd dichotemy for this generation. The most eco conscious group since time began (or should be since the media is rightly full of it) yes the least interested in demanding products to suit.