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Naim solstice price

Paul Hindle said:
I read recently that LP12 sales were quite healthy a few weeks back. “Flying off the shelves” was the phrase. I’ll see if I can dig out where that was.
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Found it in the LP12 forum. A guy who’d visited Linn in Glasgow this year was quoting a local dealer and got a like from a well known dealer on the Forum. I guess you could classify this as conjecture. But it’s so much less effort than verifiable facts don’t you think? :)
 
MrPinkEyes said:
Id imagine a lot 16k lp12/TT owners are people that have more than just one high end source not to mention money is not an issue. If my life was fluffy ducks I be more inclined to put the money into a top end TT than place it into something thats outdated the minute its taken out of the box.
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How is it that you arrive at the conclusion that high end TT's aren't outdated the minute they come out of the box? I thought that was the cornerstone of the Linn marketing plan.

If I'd kept my new in 2000 LP12 up to date and top spec I think all I'd have left of it now would be the plinth, lid and outer platter!

I'd also have spent many thousands of pounds in doing that.

At the point I switched towards digital a top TT and digital source were similarly priced at around £6K new. Digital rapidly got a lot cheaper with the DAC1 at only £700 and a suitable PC around £500. Now it seems to be £20K vs £1K and I know which I'd prefer to invest in if they are equally prone to rapid obsolescence.

I certainly bought into high end digital at absolutely the wrong moment and paid a very hefty price for the obsolescence, but having done that it became impossible to justify the ever increasing costs associated with maintaining a comparable vinyl platform.

Had I not virtually tripped over a used Orbe/Graham combo for a ridiculously good price I doubt I'd even be running vinyl these days because my old LP12 certainly wasn't any match for my digital kit.
 
colasblue said:
How is it that you arrive at the conclusion that high end TT's aren't outdated the minute they come out of the box? I thought that was the cornerstone of the Linn marketing plan.

If I'd kept my new in 2000 LP12 up to date and top spec I think all I'd have left of it now would be the plinth, lid and outer platter!

I'd also have spent many thousands of pounds in doing that.

At the point I switched towards digital a top TT and digital source were similarly priced at around £6K new. Digital rapidly got a lot cheaper with the DAC1 at only £700 and a suitable PC around £500. Now it seems to be £20K vs £1K and I know which I'd prefer to invest in if they are equally prone to rapid obsolescence.

I certainly bought into high end digital at absolutely the wrong moment and paid a very hefty price for the obsolescence, but having done that it became impossible to justify the ever increasing costs associated with maintaining a comparable vinyl platform.

Had I not virtually tripped over a used Orbe/Graham combo for a ridiculously good price I doubt I'd even be running vinyl these days because my old LP12 certainly wasn't any match for my digital kit.
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I am a bit confused by this. The LP12 of c.30 years ago was a great turntable for the price, but it wasn't neutral or even best-at-everything-for-the=money. If you had, as you put it, 'kept it up to date and top spec', you would now have a completely different and better turntable.

The old one would not have got worse (if serviced every 5-10 years and not used with a completely knackered cartridge) but the upgrades are not merely maintaining the status quo, which is perhaps how some will read the 'kept' bit above. I am not sure you have a 'level playing field' comparison here.

Finally, if you know a £1K digital source that is as involving to most as a £20K turntable, please do sing its praises here! I have a CDS2 (best slightly-affordable CD I ever heard) and NDX2 + XPS2 for streaming. They have convenience and an absence of clicks, but they don't (to me) play music better than my definitely-not-ultimate-spec LP12.

None of that means the Orbe isn't an excellent turntable of course - it is.
 
NickofWimbledon said:
I am a bit confused by this. The LP12 of c.30 years ago was a great turntable for the price, but it wasn't neutral or even best-at-everything-for-the=money. If you had, as you put it, 'kept it up to date and top spec', you would now have a completely different and better turntable.

The old one would not have got worse (if serviced every 5-10 years and not used with a completely knackered cartridge) but the upgrades are not merely maintaining the status quo, which is perhaps how some will read the 'kept' bit above. I am not sure you have a 'level playing field' comparison here.

Finally, if you know a £20K digital source that is as involving to most as a £1K turntable, please do sing its praises here! I have a CDS2 (best slightly-affordable CD I ever heard) and NDX2 + XPS2 for streaming. They have convenience and an absence of clicks, but they don't (to me) play music better than my definitely-not-ultimate-spec LP12.

None of that means the Orbe isn't an excellent turntable of course - it is.
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FIFY. :D
 
I also owned a CDSII at one point and although not bad it didn't really do it for me in quite the way my LP12 did. That was back in the 90's!

By modern digital standards the CDSII is not even close to "state of the art". It's been superseded twice by Naim themselves.

The noughties brought "proper" digital (as opposed the the half baked crap Linn, Naim Arcam and others had been fobbing us off with for years up to that time), but even before then Linn had been engineering their TT to sound the same as their CDP's so a 2000 spec LP12 was anything but the coloured 1980's thing many of us originally bought.

The advent of the DAC64 was arguably the point at which Linn and Naim had their arses so heavily kicked in the digital department they had to get their acts together and come up with something decent, and we've seen a stream of new and improved digital products ever since, but at increasingly crazy prices relative to the competition. Chord have also jumped on that (mental money) bandwagon. Chord & Linn might have managed something close to the state of the art but Naim, to my mind and ears haven't really.

Linn TT's seem to have evolved subsequently to maintain a semblance of equivalence.

Sure a new LP12 is better, I never said it wasn't, but at what price?

A key issue is that other manufacturer's digital products have also evolved similarly in sound quality, but their pricing structure has evolved rather differently.

And yes you can get a properly immersive sound out of digital for £1K - you should try it, by TT standards it's very cheap!

You can probably even flog your old CDs II to some mug to more than cover the cost!

I think I've only heard an NDS once and to me it seemed OK but not exceptional and it's based on the same Burr Brown D/A tech as the CDSII isn't it?

An important point here is that there's a whole world of stuff out there that isn't made by Linn and Naim and some of it offers much better VFM.

I suspect my next HiFi move will be to move on My NBL's and active 135's in favour of a Genelec system which will sound at least as good, but cost a fraction what a Naim system does.

And as for whether I'm making fair comparisons to TT's I suspect I am since the cost of my TT rig new wouldn't be far shy of £12K these days.
 
I had a CDS2, the pRat from that machine was just mad good, had a great sound stage. I found putting a hiline into the mixed helped it out a lot. Bettered on the hifi front by cds3 but not in the prat department imo.
 
colasblue said:
I also owned a CDSII at one point and although not bad it didn't really do it for me in quite the way my LP12 did. That was back in the 90's!

By modern digital standards the CDSII is not even close to "state of the art". It's been superseded twice by Naim themselves.

The noughties brought "proper" digital (as opposed the the half baked crap Linn, Naim Arcam and others had been fobbing us off with for years up to that time), but even before then Linn had been engineering their TT to sound the same as their CDP's so a 2000 spec LP12 was anything but the coloured 1980's thing many of us originally bought.

The advent of the DAC64 was arguably the point at which Linn and Naim had their arses so heavily kicked in the digital department they had to get their acts together and come up with something decent, and we've seen a stream of new and improved digital products ever since, but at increasingly crazy prices relative to the competition. Chord have also jumped on that (mental money) bandwagon. Chord & Linn might have managed something close to the state of the art but Naim, to my mind and ears haven't really.

Linn TT's seem to have evolved subsequently to maintain a semblance of equivalence.

Sure a new LP12 is better, I never said it wasn't, but at what price?

A key issue is that other manufacturer's digital products have also evolved similarly in sound quality, but their pricing structure has evolved rather differently.

And yes you can get a properly immersive sound out of digital for £1K - you should try it, by TT standards it's very cheap!

You can probably even flog your old CDs II to some mug to more than cover the cost!

I think I've only heard an NDS once and to me it seemed OK but not exceptional and it's based on the same Burr Brown D/A tech as the CDSII isn't it?

An important point here is that there's a whole world of stuff out there that isn't made by Linn and Naim and some of it offers much better VFM.

I suspect my next HiFi move will be to move on My NBL's and active 135's in favour of a Genelec system which will sound at least as good, but cost a fraction what a Naim system does.
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Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

The CDS2 was indeed replaced many years ago in Naim's range (though not due it having bad SQ), but I do not agree that it and all Naim & Linn CD players were or are 'half-baked crap'. Do you also regard the NDX2 + XPS2DR as equally 'crap'? After all, it sounds very like the CDS2.

You also say that I can buy a digital source to beat the newer Naim products (NDX2 + XPSDR again?) for £1K. Which one is that?

The NDS has now-obsolete streaming architecture, but sounded good to most in - about 2012. However, a lot has changed in streaming in the decade or so since it was introduced, and the choice of DAC chips is only a part of that. I certainly regard that NDX2 + XPSDR as better in SQ and functionality than the NDS.

Second-hand prices are often a good indicator of where VFM lies. Th fact that a 30+ -year-old 250 power amp (with a service in the last decade) sell for more now than it did when I bought it is a hint on VFM. Similarly, NDX2s do not seem to be valued like (say a Cambridge CXN (V2). By contrast, a Naim Core certainly works well, but the second-hand prices suggest that 'the market' regards the new price as perhaps twice fair value compared to competition.

CDS2's have a mechanism that will not last forever, yet still sell for £1500+ and we have all seen the prices of very second-hand LP12s. The same effect may benefit you if selling a set of NAP135s.

It is possible that all that second-hand demand comes from idiots who do not have your judgement or hearing. However, that is not the only explanation for the divergence in views.
 
I don't get this idea that one format has to be as good as another to be enjoyable. Your LP12 does not sound as good as your digital set up. So what? Listen to an early LP12 or Ariston. Does it sound as technically accomplished as a later deck? No, but it's still a very musical record player.

If vinyl becomes unlistenable to you because digital offers more detail or blacker backgrounds the problem is not with the turntable, it is with you. The hi-fi matters more than the music.
 
NickofWimbledon said:
It is possible that all that second-hand demand comes from idiots who do not have your judgement or hearing. However, that is not the only explanation for the divergence in views.
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This also applies to brand new demand. Although I cannot provide any verifiable facts to support this. It is therefore my opinion only.
Please refer to my T&Cs and confirm you have read them before replying to this post. :)
 
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MrPinkEyes said:
I had a CDS2, the pRat from that machine was just mad good, had a great sound stage
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I've owned many Naim CD players since they released early 90's.
Indeed they did the Prat.
Soundstage isn't high on my list so can't comment.

Too much to mention them all but particular one, a CDi.
I just loved the cool look and the sound was superb.
It was however excelled by the CDS range as it should, nevertheless I wish it would run forever.

Later on, I realized the scarse parts situation, risk of being doorstops and Naim's vaque information regarding future support.

I went to Rega players which perform to my satisfaction, they are supported too.
 
And yes you can get a properly immersive sound out of digital for £1K - you should try it, by TT standards it's very cheap!
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Works both ways. Slightly modded Technics SL-1200, AT MM, Jez’s modded Cambridge and you have an extremely enjoyable vinyl front end for less than a grand.
 
I should confirm here to any independent party that nothing I type on this thread should be construed or treated as a reply to @Paul Hindle.

Given his statement, everyone else may wish to make the same statement, or to take legal advice before continuing.

Has anyone come across this approach from a contributor before?
 
I thought he was joking/writing tongue-in-cheek. If not, that’s the funniest thing anyone has written on pfm, ever.
 
fa·ce·tious
/fəˈsēSHəs/

adjective
treating serious issues with deliberately inappropriate humor; flippant.
'a facetious remark'
synonyms: flippant, flip, glib, frivolous, tongue-in-cheek, waggish, whimsical, joking, jokey, jesting, jocular, playful, roguish, impish, teasing, arch, mischievous, puckish, in fun, in jest, witty, amusing, funny, droll, comic, comical, chucklesome, lighthearted, high-spirited, bantering, frolicsome, sportive, jocose

see: Naim Audio release limited edition record player named after Druid observed solar events.
 
Joe Hutch said:
I thought he was joking/writing tongue-in-cheek. If not, that’s the funniest thing anyone has written on pfm, ever.
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I was joking, in reference to another post even further up. Forgot the emoji oh dear! (Edited now for those that require it). I still think my response to Nick was quite funny though.
 
Paul Hindle said:
I was joking, in reference to another post even further up. Forgot the emoji oh dear! I still think my response to Nick was quite funny though.
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In that case, my apologies. It's hardly the first time I have been slow on the uptake.

In any event, I'd have to agree that it is possible that the whole Linn/ Naim story has been based throughout entirely on money from the deaf, the daft and the deluded. I'd argue that this does of itself not imply that it is very probable.
 
NickofWimbledon said:
In that case, my apologies. It's hardly the first time I have been slow on the uptake.

In any event, I'd have to agree that it is possible that the whole Linn/ Naim story has been based throughout entirely on money from the deaf, the daft and the deluded. I'd argue that this does of itself not imply that it is very probable.
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No worries. I’ve discovered that emojis don’t work from my iPad keyboard but they do if you type the right characters. Anyway I’ve been enough of a distraction. Please continue the discussion :)
 
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