Naim solstice price

[Paul Hindle]

A good concise review based on actually listening to the thing is nice to see but this thread is ultimately about whether the Solstice has been a success or not based on a number of unsold decks appearing on the market at knockdown prices imo. And whether the Solstice was a good strategic move for Naim. As having much experience of working in companies over the last 35 years that have been bought or merged it is easy for some of us to be cynical about the motivation for launching something like the Solstice so it is interesting to hear others views. Ultimately I am interested to see what the future holds for the much loved Naim brand and what others here think about it. If there is any perceived “slagging off” of Naim then it’s just the same white noise that we hear all the time in other threads that most of us choose to filter out. I don’t think anyone disagrees that the Solstice is a great sounding tt whether we have heard it or not.

 

[PerF]

I think the price for the package that includes arm, cart, phono stage and power supply is very reasonable and competitive in comparison with higher end turntables out there.

Guess everything is relative, I'd call a Rega P1 price reasonable, not a £15K deck.

The best turntable I've ever heard was Vertere, probably same price level.

There seem to be a number of very expensive decks out there, obviously there's a market for very high cost hifi and margins must be generous - sell 100 Rega P1 or 1 Solstice.

 

[Paul Hindle]

Interestingly, Clearaudio make a £133,000+ deck called the Statement. Could we imagine this being paired with the Naim Statement amps? Makes me wonder what level the Solstice is optimised for, 252/300 or 552/500. If the latter, then it seems a little underpriced at £16k.

 

[per-Sony-fied]

OK so yesterday was interesting. Listened to a Solstice package via 82/250 into some Neat Motive SX1s. Wanted to keep the amplification and speakers in the realms of something I know well hence why it's a bit under-specced for the front end, but it gave me some sort of benchmark. Also listened to a Akurate LP12 with an Ekos/Kendo (I think) through the same system by way of some comparison.

So what is my verdict? Well I've never been very good at describing sound, but I will have a go here. First impressions are of a product that sounds like a Naim product of old to an extent. It is not the most neutral or analytical turntable/arm/cartridge combo, but it sure extracts a lot of information and presents it very musically with that light mid bass emphasis that old Naim products always used to have.

Moving over to the LP12 (which I didn't have as long with and only compared a few tracks) I was greeted with a slightly different sound with more bass bloom and a definitely slightly higher noise floor than the Solstice, but again the turntable made a lovely job of presenting the music and making it cohese for want of a better expression.

So when you say the same system, the Linn was put through the Naim phono stage? Do you think that some of the character of the TT may be attributable to the phono stage?

 

[Paul Hindle]

I believe the method they worked out, "how can we create a pre-sold product with highest possible margin"

To fulfill this they needed to find an already existing turntable manufacturer as Naim don't have experience or facilities needed, even a limited number product.

Brand "Naim" is a well known and international respected brand and the expected Solstice number sold, well almost.
The Solstice project will remain a basic for forthcoming products released as single items, tonearms, phonostage etc.

So essentially this was just a tactical move to generate short term revenue and hopefully generate sales of ancillaries off the back of it for the longer term. Not a strategic move towards turntables? That would make sense to me. No real risk having an established engineering business to deliver it.

 

[linnfomaniac83]

That's the only way Naim were selling it and changing the cartridge and phono stage is a pretty normal thing to do when tweaking the sound of a turntable. I think another mistake was locking buyers into the full package rather than developing and selling the deck in modular form like the LP12. A universal fit tonearm with optional cartridge and phono stage. I get the feeling that whoever called the shots on this project did not understand vinyl users or the market at all.

Just the fact that it was limited to 500 units shows Naim’s interest in selling turntables/turntable components. I don’t know how many LP12s Linn makes per year, but despite the pricing, they’re on back order, so I’d imagine it’s more than 500. This was a “because we can” product, although they didn’t, Clearaudio did.

FWIW, I’ve not seen or heard one, it might actually be great… not easy to audition though, and a big chunk of money, beyond my means.

 

[Mr Pig]

I don’t know how many LP12s Linn makes per year, but despite the pricing, they’re on back order...

A waiting list is not an indication of high demand, it's an indication of low production. Which might be deliberate to infer high demand. I don't think Linn sell that many new LP12s, I think the money is in the upgrades.

 

[NickofWimbledon]

A waiting list is not an indication of high demand, it's an indication of low production. Which might be deliberate to infer high demand. I don't think Linn sell that many new LP12s, I think the money is in the upgrades.

I am not not entirely happy with the 'infer' bit there, but perhaps that's just me.

The idea that Linn would deliberately produce far fewer LP12 than they could sell at today's price, so as to mislead the market about demand seems to me difficult to support. More important, if you really want to know about LP12 production or sales, aren't those sorts of numbers actually findable?

 

[Mr Pig]

The idea that Linn would deliberately produce far fewer LP12 than they could sell at today's price, so as to mislead the market about demand seems to me difficult to support.

Linn cannot drop the LP12 as it is their signature product but I don't think it sells in big numbers. I did actually hear the number recently, I know people who deal with Linn, it's local to me, but I can't remember it. Wasn't a big number though. They make more money on the upgrades, which is hardly surprising, but the turntable in general is marginal. They make most money on the rest of their products.

Production vs demand is always a balancing act. During their history there have been times when Rega could have sold more but they felt that they couldn't ramp up production quickly enough without sacrificing quality control. I didn't know there was a wait for an LP12 but there can be lots of reasons for that. Remember that there are choices of finish so they might be made to order but I understand there is a wait for most things they make. I've bought two new platters recently and had to wait for them both.

 

[Paul Hindle]

I read recently that LP12 sales were quite healthy a few weeks back. “Flying off the shelves” was the phrase. I’ll see if I can dig out where that was.

 

[Woodface]

Given that the LP12 has been in production for 50 plus years there are more out there than will be produced in the near term. Thus, that market for upgrades is far bigger than for TT purchases.

I doubt there are many high end turntables sold these days. The volume will be with Rega P1s & Project Debut.

 

[Bob McC]

It always was

 

[Ponkbutler]

“Flying off the shelves” was the phrase.

They really must fix those shelves....

 

[linnfomaniac83]

A waiting list is not an indication of high demand, it's an indication of low production. Which might be deliberate to infer high demand. I don't think Linn sell that many new LP12s, I think the money is in the upgrades.

You may be right… they do sell lots of upgrades to be fair.

 

[James]

A waiting list is not an indication of high demand, it's an indication of low production. Which might be deliberate to infer high demand.

If this is true, then all we can infer is that demand exceeds supply. As for the business strategy behind it, we can speculate until the cows come home.

 

[Mr Pig]

If this is true, then all we can infer is that demand exceeds supply.

Exactly.

 

[colasblue]

Well if high end TT's are "flying off the shelves" I have no idea who's buying them.

I moved into the "digital isn't completely crap" camp as late as 2000 with the advent of the chord DAC64 which actually did a decent job of digital replay for the first time to my ears. In those days we thought you needed a really good transport such as a TAG Mclaren DVD32R, but it turned out all the DVD32R actually did differently from other options was rip a CD in real time the same way as a PC does, and that PC's can actually do it just as well.

Since then both my analogue and digital sources have moved on considerably. In 2000 I had a top spec LP12/Ekos/Lingo II and a slightly less than top spec Troika (Arkiv was allegedly better)

The digital was the DVD3322R +Dac 64.

DAC64 moved on first since it proved unreliable and was sidegraded to BM Dac (original no USB version)

Then the DVD32R (even more unreliable a it turned out) was replaced by a PC with pro sound card (RMEHDSP9624) and foobar 2000.

The LP12 struggled and was replaced with Michell OrbeSE and a Graham 2.2

DAC has evolved to a BM DAC3 via a DAC2

TT not much changed but now runs an AT 33PTGII compared with an Ortofon MC20

Thing is all my DAC loveliness costs only 2.5K new, and arguably slightly more loveliness can now be had from a Topping D90 SE for under a grand (after a couple or three more years evolution).

I've mostly found that I can repurchase records on CD and they don't sound worse in most cases, and in many are considerably improved.

How mad would I have to be to even consider a new TT at the 16k mark? I just don't have enough records which didn't transfer to CD well to even think about doing that!

I'm sure TT tech has moved on since 2000, it would have to have to remain competitive with digital, but surely the price point also has to remain competitive!

 

[MrPinkEyes]

Id imagine a lot 16k lp12/TT owners are people that have more than just one high end source not to mention money is not an issue. If my life was fluffy ducks I be more inclined to put the money into a top end TT than place it into something thats outdated the minute its taken out of the box.

 

[Hound]

It's nice to have a few top end sources to choose from.
A top end vinyl rig certainly takes some beating, as it just has a sound that digital finds hard to copy.

 

[MrPinkEyes]

It's nice to have a few top end sources to choose from.
A top end vinyl rig certainly takes some beating, as it just has a sound that digital finds hard to copy.

Yes I remember in the Naim forum when the ND555 was released some members commented on how analog it sounded, at the time i found that amusing.