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Music First Audio

I’ve got a very similar story to Stidge; moved on from the classic with v2 transformers to the baby reference v2 a couple of years ago.

John originally dropped by my place when I lived in London and lent me an at the time top of the range baby reference to demo - very trusting of him.

Component matching is crucial with passive line stages - do your homework and demo before you buy. I have never had an issue with dynamics and slam, with (new and unknown) music making me jump with fright at times!

I have zero desire to change this component.
 
clivem2 said:
Don't feel too sorry for MFA.... Jonathan took developments from John Chapmam of Bent Audio, used them and then stopped him from selling S&B products and launched MFA. John nearly went to the wall. It's all about money in the end. Nothing new and the way of the world.
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True Clive, I owned one of Johns NOH TVC's and have for the last 12 years owned his top of the line fully featured TAP with MF silver transformers. Its fantastic and I will never sell it. The unit has 34 steps, all functions expected of an active pre and remote. The MFA's look like lazy design in comparision for 3x the price. MF stopped supply to John about a year after I bought my TAP.
 
The ARC is better Phil but I have only ever heard it through my ADAM's which are now sold. It will be interesting to hear how the two compare with my new Lenards when I finally get them but I expect the ARC will still be superior.
 
Can the MFA TVC run two sets of power amps with a y cable or would that change the equation in terms of reduced ‘gain’ ie not going as loud?

Also what would be the minimum input voltage to get it to satisfactorily work with low efficiency speakers? I need to check my power amp sensitivity- most sources would be at least 2v, some higher and balanced.
 
Nord have just released a TVC and there is nice one made by Icon Audio ( think I’ve got the name right). I’ve met the audio engineer who makes the latter and he seems to know what he is doing. Good VFM as I recall too. No affiliation.
 
iansr said:
Nord have just released a TVC and there is nice one made by Icon Audio ( think I’ve got the name right). I’ve met the audio engineer who makes the latter and he seems to know what he is doing. Good VFM as I recall too. No affiliation.
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Not Icon Audio. The small but lovely company behind Icon 2 are Life-Changer Audio UK. https://www.tvcpreamp.co.uk/contact/
Icon Audio are in Leicester I think and do lovely big valve things...

Will take a poke around Nord, that's an interesting development.
 
mikechadwick said:
Anyone used MFA Passive Pre-Amps? If so, please share your thoughts.
thanks
mike
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I've had the Classic Copper and MFA updated it by adding the 25% larger transformers. I found the preamp sounded superb when matched with a Quad 909, but dreadful when used with Electrocompaniet AW180 poweramps. As I needed more muscle than provided by the 909 to drive my speakers (Sonus Faber floorstanders) I moved over to the Electros paired with a matching preamp.

The MFA does need very careful power amp matching, as has been said. I remember the best sound I ever got was the MFA feeding the 909, connected to a pair of Quad electrostatics on loan from a dealer. I didn't buy them as I didn't have the room space, but the natural tone and 'holographic' soundstage more than compensated for the electrostatic's lack of oomph.

I still have the MFA and occasionally play with it, but can't escape the fact it doesn't match the AW180s
 
I think it's worth reiterating that the MFA TVC passives by their design add nothing to the signal and take as little as possible away; the larger transformers in the V2's do allow the bass to pass through more readily, but they don't add bass. So if an MFA sounds "dreadful" with component X then one might want to consider whether component X is the source of the problem... and whether the preferred pre-amp is either compensating for or masking that weakness.
That's not to criticise anyone's system, it is simply to raise the question of where the "dreadfulness" might arise, and this is highly unlikely to be the MFA pre-amp as by its very nature it is as transparent as any pre-amp can possibly be.
 
TheFlash said:
I think it's worth reiterating that the MFA TVC passives by their design add nothing to the signal and take as little as possible away; the larger transformers in the V2's do allow the bass to pass through more readily, but they don't add bass. So if an MFA sounds "dreadful" with component X then one might want to consider whether component X is the source of the problem... and whether the preferred pre-amp is either compensating for or masking that weakness.
That's not to criticise anyone's system, it is simply to raise the question of where the "dreadfulness" might arise, and this is highly unlikely to be the MFA pre-amp as by its very nature it is as transparent as any pre-amp can possibly be.
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Of course. I agree to a certain extent. When I say 'dreadful' I use the term relative to the associated equipment, listening room and preferences. To reiterate, the MFA sounded excellent with a 909, so so-called component 'synergy' is an issue.
 
TheFlash said:
Not Icon Audio. The small but lovely company behind Icon 2 are Life-Changer Audio UK. https://www.tvcpreamp.co.uk/contact/
Icon Audio are in Leicester I think and do lovely big valve things...

Will take a poke around Nord, that's an interesting development.
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Ah, now this IS interesting. As soon as I saw the Nord "TVC/AVC" text, I thought of Pal Nagy who is the brains (and heart!) behind the Icon 2... and it appears he has licensed his Icon 2 tech (or is employed by Nord) as he is mentioned on the Nord site as their Design Engineer. This tech is fabulous stuff, and I was fortunate enough to hear at his home last year. I then borrowed a TVC-only version for home demo vs my MFA (now departed) and ultimately I preferred the MFA, but at his place I thought the AVC was probably what I preferred overall.

The tech however was in a different league to the MFA's: a powered (obviously) microprocessor plays no part in the playback chain so it remains 100% pasive sonically but this addition allows remote control of volume, configuration of input labels etc, all software upgradeable. My dream product last year would have been Pal's (now Nord's) tech wrapped around beefier transformers than Pal was using in his first gen products: Stevens & Billington in my dreams but they're not licensed outside MFA.

I will continue watching this space with keen interest. Pal's work hints at where next gen passive TVC's are heading; he's also one of the nicest guys you could hope to meet. I will try to hear a Nord this year.
 
TheDecameron said:
Can the MFA TVC run two sets of power amps with a y cable or would that change the equation in terms of reduced ‘gain’ ie not going as loud?

Also what would be the minimum input voltage to get it to satisfactorily work with low efficiency speakers? I need to check my power amp sensitivity- most sources would be at least 2v, some higher and balanced.
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I have a homebrew unit I built using silver Music First transformers. I'm running two power amps from it, vertically bi-amping the JBLs. Which works very well indeed.
It has the 6db gain wired in permanently, and one input bypasses the selector switch. So, critical listening can be done with only one (attenuation) switch in circuit. Which is audible.

I believe the stock MF units have two outputs as standard, so you wouldn't need a Y connector. But as I say, two amps, or and amp and stereo subs are no problem.

Edit...no one would describe the system I use the pre with as lacking oomph.

Further edit....the Townsend Allegri uses autoformers, not transformers. So the signal wire is continuous, not the case with MFA.

The autoformers they use are available to the public at
http://www.intactaudio.com/atten.html
 
ff1d1l said:
I have a homebrew unit I built using silver Music First transformers. I'm running two power amps from it, vertically bi-amping the JBLs. Which works very well indeed.
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How the heck did you get your hands on those? Find a "donor" pre-amp which had been involved in a car accident?
 
TheFlash said:
How the heck did you get your hands on those? Find a "donor" pre-amp which had been involved in a car accident?
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They were on ebay. They are not the latest version, they probably date from when S&B didn't mind selling them. Came with a decent Seiden switch.
 
TheFlash said:
Ah, now this IS interesting. As soon as I saw the Nord "TVC/AVC" text, I thought of Pal Nagy who is the brains (and heart!) behind the Icon 2... and it appears he has licensed his Icon 2 tech (or is employed by Nord) as he is mentioned on the Nord site as their Design Engineer. This tech is fabulous stuff, and I was fortunate enough to hear at his home last year. I then borrowed a TVC-only version for home demo vs my MFA (now departed) and ultimately I preferred the MFA, but at his place I thought the AVC was probably what I preferred overall.

The tech however was in a different league to the MFA's: a powered (obviously) microprocessor plays no part in the playback chain so it remains 100% pasive sonically but this addition allows remote control of volume, configuration of input labels etc, all software upgradeable. My dream product last year would have been Pal's (now Nord's) tech wrapped around beefier transformers than Pal was using in his first gen products: Stevens & Billington in my dreams but they're not licensed outside MFA.

I will continue watching this space with keen interest. Pal's work hints at where next gen passive TVC's are heading; he's also one of the nicest guys you could hope to meet. I will try to hear a Nord this year.
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Yes Pal’s TVC was the one I was referring to but I got the name confused with Icon Audio. He is indeed a nice chap and it’s a quality product I think. If I was in the market for a TVC I would certainly be tempted by his.
 
Schnitger said:
I've had the Classic Copper and MFA updated it by adding the 25% larger transformers. I found the preamp sounded superb when matched with a Quad 909, but dreadful when used with Electrocompaniet AW180 poweramps. As I needed more muscle than provided by the 909 to drive my speakers (Sonus Faber floorstanders) I moved over to the Electros paired with a matching preamp.

The MFA does need very careful power amp matching, as has been said. I remember the best sound I ever got was the MFA feeding the 909, connected to a pair of Quad electrostatics on loan from a dealer. I didn't buy them as I didn't have the room space, but the natural tone and 'holographic' soundstage more than compensated for the electrostatic's lack of oomph.

I still have the MFA and occasionally play with it, but can't escape the fact it doesn't match the AW180s
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I have experienced the same thing myself using a MFA Classic - with a Krell KSA-100S the sound was awful, but its working wonderfully with a Lyngdorf SDA2175.

But what is the factor in the specs of these power amps that meant the MFA Classic was dreadful with the AW180s but so good with the Quad 909?
 
alanbeeb said:
I have experienced the same thing myself using a MFA Classic - with a Krell KSA-100S the sound was awful, but its working wonderfully with a Lyngdorf SDA2175.

But what is the factor in the specs of these power amps that meant the MFA Classic was dreadful with the AW180s but so good with the Quad 909?
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I'm struggling here. The MFA is passive and by its very nature passes the signal through with almost no sound signature added. The use of transformers to control volume means that there is none of the signal degradation which can affect even the best attenuator designs. I can therefore think of only two things which might cause the combination (and that's what it is of course, it's not the MFA itself and alone) to sound "dreadful":
1) Some sort of source to power amp impedance mismatch: I'm no expert (that's probably self-evident from the first few words of this sentence!) but a TVC passive doesn't change whatever input impedance it receives, so it can't be an MFA: power amp mismatch, it must be a source/power amp mismatch if this is the root cause.
2) The other pre, which sounded lovely with the KSA-100S (or AW180s) by comparison with the MFA, would have had its own sonic signature; this might have been a better match overall to the signature of the Krell than the MFA which would simply tell it how it was.

Someone will be along shortly to tell me why they are both rubbish... but in the mean time I think it's important we recognise that it is not the MFA per se which sounds "dreadful".
 
if you have a nice warm power amp and you pop an ultra transparent linear TVC like mfa with it , then it may sound really good . if you put a a very analytical power amp with it it may be too much perhaps ?

i do love the mfa stuff and i dont think i have ever had a power amp it didnt sound good with . but i did find that after my last V2 classic copper i really liked the glorious midrange of the modwright valve. the mfa was incredibly linear in presentation but very enjoyable
 
hifinutt said:
if you have a nice warm power amp and you pop an ultra transparent linear TVC like mfa with it , then it may sound really good . if you put a a very analytical power amp with it it may be too much perhaps ?

i do love the mfa stuff and i dont think i have ever had a power amp it didnt sound good with . but i did find that after my last V2 classic copper i really liked the glorious midrange of the modwright valve. the mfa was incredibly linear in presentation but very enjoyable
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Exactly Phil. So it's not actually the "MFA sounding dreadful" at all.
 
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