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Munich Hi-End

Discussion in 'audio' started by Purité Audio, May 9, 2019.

  1. Woodface

    Woodface pfm Member

    Obviously I know that. You have completely missed the point. S-works frame is available for around £2600 (discounted) my whole bike cost less than that. The weight difference for dura ace over ultegra is marginal & it performs no better. Extra stiffness of frame is a marginal benefit if any for recreational riders, even relatively fit ones. I made a decision a while ago to ride a relatively modest bike & given a recent hip injury that choice has saved me a lot of money. I do find the sight of older unfit men on £6k bikes rather unedifying. Having said that my mate is going a fair bit better than me at the moment.
  2. owl

    owl pfm Member

    I ride a 2005 trek madone. I paint stripped it with sand paper and relaquered it. Record 10 groupset, overtorque chainset, bontrager xxx tubular wheels and carbon saddle and post. most items second hand, About 1/3 of the price of most top end bikes and 5.8kg.
  3. G T Audio

    G T Audio Trade: Manufacturer and Distributor

    I haven't missed the point. Have you ridden two identical bikes, one with the standard carbon weave and the other with the high modulus weave? I have, and the difference is not small. For some, and I am talking about serious riders the difference will justify the price increase (discounts aside). To some riders, this could make the difference of a few minutes over a 100-mile sportive. I agree with you about the sight of old unfit men whether on bikes or not. Preferably not if they are in lycra... :)
    booja30 likes this.
  4. owl

    owl pfm Member

    stiffness in the headtube and geometry can make a big difference when descending. On a 25 km descent it is the difference of up to 2 mins for me ( I'm not a great descender).

    bottom bracket stiffness imho is overestimated. most fit non pros simply dont put out the watts for it to make much difference.
    G T Audio likes this.
  5. Woodface

    Woodface pfm Member

    Serious riders don't do sportives;) Most riders do not generate the power to take advantage of the increased stiffness anyway. The higher grade carbon allows the bike to be stiffer at a lighter weight not necessarily stiffer overall. I have never ridden the two bikes back to back as they wouldn't come in the same spec so it is a cumulative effect. I have a friend who works in the trade & he states there is not real difference between ultegra & dura ace bar a bit of weight. I just can't justify a £6k bike even though I can afford one
  6. Woodface

    Woodface pfm Member

    I'm not a great descender either but think geometry makes the biggest difference, lower front end gives better control. BB stiffness only really helps if you have the power, as you say.
  7. Strictly Stereo

    Strictly Stereo Trade: Strictly Stereo

    That's your subjective assessment of those bikes and components. That's fine. Someone else might have different priorities and reach a different conclusion. That's fine too, isn't it?

    On the subject of hifi, I quite enjoy the ultra high end stuff that gets wheeled out for Munich. It is the audio equivalent of the hypercar. Lots of noise and totally impractical. I wouldn't want to own one, but I quite like that they exist.
    booja30 and alan967tiger like this.
  8. Woodface

    Woodface pfm Member

    Of course it is fine but I am just talking about the relative weights of different components, these are facts. I just don't like the vulgar end of hifi & I doubt there is any sonic benefit. I'm afraid I am becoming an old cynic
    booja30 likes this.
  9. ssimon

    ssimon pfm Member

    The fact that the thread has veered away from Munich is emblematic that we are talking about Male jewellery here. It could have equally have gone to mechanical watches, which Audio reviewer Ken Kessler also reviews. He has recommended that Hi-Fi takes a cue from up market wristwatches. Some have, just look at the dial on the D'Agastino amps, I'm sure it doesn't improve sound quality.
    mr sneff and booja30 like this.
  10. wyjsar

    wyjsar Nothing but heart

    Any sign of the new MDAC there?
    The Chronicals and Wilson like this.
  11. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    I’ve just got to the end of 46 pages now and huge credit must go to My-HiEnd for documenting it so well. They are amazing photos and I’m pretty sure I prefer viewing them on my iPad than I would actually traipsing around the thing!

    There is some interesting stuff there for sure, even a couple of rooms I’d really like to hear, but to my eyes the hit-rate looks pretty low from an innovation perspective.

    PS As a pointless contrast I’m looking at the pictures whilst listening to a Brahms cello sonata played back via an Audio Synthesis Passion, Leak Stereo 20 and JR149s, so the ‘preamp’ that started the real high-end passive stepped attenuator revolution, the UK’s very first stereo amplifier, and a pair of mini-monitors that managed to be spectacularly radical in design yet remarkably affordable. Properly innovative audio kit!
    Woodface and John_73 like this.
  12. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    FWIW I wish I’d logged the pages with products that interested me, far too much work to find them again. Many are things I know I like, e.g. Musikelectronic Geithain speakers, Leben & Air Tight amps, as well as all the normal favs from Sugden, Falcon, Neat etc who never let the side down.

    There were a couple of very interesting looking tonearms that actually looked to have some real design methodology behind them (as a rule of thumb the more understated and less blingy they looked the more innovation was actually on show!). There was also a rather interesting looking range of transmission-line speakers ranging from a tiny stand-mount to a floor-stander with examples cut in half hung on the wall showing the internal structure. These showing similar innovation to say the Boenicke discussed elsewhere on pfm or the lovely looking little Pen Audio plywood mini-monitors where the cabinets are so cleverly CNCd internally to make them anything but a bog-standard box. This is the sort of thing I want to see, i.e. modern construction techniques used to do things that are genuinely useful, but couldn’t be done easily previously, not just adding absurd levels of unwanted mass and shininess to things. I have a feeling ugly bright blue LEDs might just be on the way out too, which is obviously fabulous news for the industry!

    As I say a really interesting picture set from multiple perspectives and a valuable historical document as to where the audio industry was in 2019!
    booja30 likes this.
  13. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    Delighted to see Wilson Benesch get back into TTs with a vengeance. I mean, sub 2.5um VTA adjustment on the fly remotely from your arm chair!
  14. HabUK

    HabUK pfm Member

    Came here for Munich High End, ended up reading about bikes
    Paul Mc, G T Audio and Woodface like this.
  15. joe9407

    joe9407 actress/activist

    this really can't happen quickly enough. i bought a Linn Radikal a couple years ago that has a blue LED so bright you could could examine the bones in your fingers with it. a few days after we got it, after going to bed, my wife said (apropos of nothing), "that ****ing light's brutal."

    the next day i found a tuft of cat hair on the floor, rolled it into a ball, and stuck it in the hole in the front of the Radikal where the LED lives. problem solved.
    Fretbuzz, Snufkin and Drumossie like this.
  16. SteveG

    SteveG pfm Member

    There is definitely quite a bit of reverse snobbery when it comes to bikes! I've actually got 3 S-works frames (as well as several non S-works specialized) and they're all very nice, although none were particularly expensive and the delta between those and the non S-works ones when buying 2nd hand wasn't that high. As it happens the bike that gets the most mileage is my ancient, non S-works Roubaix - although that's mostly because it's still the most comfortable road bike I've ever ridden.
  17. HabUK

    HabUK pfm Member

    Fascinating thread, I've learnt more about bikes than I ever thought I would!
    G T Audio, Woodface and mr sneff like this.
  18. HansW

    HansW pfm Member

    Looking at the My-HiEnd pictures is overwhelming. I havn't even been able to get through it all. I can’t imagine what it will be like in a few years when Chinese and other Asian high-end brands are likely to have a much bigger presence.

    I spoke to the CEO of Marten Audio about Munich a couple of weeks ago and he said that a problem with the high-end is that there are more brands than customers (only partly tounge in cheek).

    Best regards

  19. HansW

    HansW pfm Member

    There are several potential reasons to buy an expensive and advanced bike. For excercise though nothing beats a heavy bike with only one gear. It is heavier going and with only one gear you get interval training by default, which is supposedly better for you.

    It is strange that in many sports you increase the training difficulty, heavier loads, longer distances, etc, as you get better but with cyclists the better they get the more gears, less weight and less resistance they invest in.

  20. Woodface

    Woodface pfm Member

    That's not interval training BTW. It also depends where you live, in Sheffield you need gears.

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