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Microphony III

On a related note, I do think the argument about trusting science is a spurious one, in some respects.



There is, however, no real analogy between what we are arguing about hifi, and the aeronautical equivalent, because nobody is arguing that airliners could work better if we add a few tweaks, and we have no way of knowing whether they would, or not.

You make my point for me, it would be preposterous in aeronautics but hey any cowboy can spout pseudoscience in audio and expect to be unchallenged because 'we interact more personally with our hifi' and anything is within the realms of possibility-for some bizarre reason.

Just to be clear I'm not calling you a cowboy Steve!
 
Actually, I'm afraid I may not have made my point all that well. I'm not arguing that it would be preposterous in aeronautics at all. (Any number of aftermarket modifications are available to improve the performance of light aircraft, for example, and they work, too).

Rather, I'm saying that to draw the analogy is not valid, because you are arguing that we trust aircraft designers and wouldn't tweak. I'm saying that we have no opportunity to tweak in that case, so your conclusion that we trust aircraft designers, but not audio designers, is based on a shaky premise.
 
I'm not really sure what these graphs are telling us - but there are some quite significant differences in both scale and damping(?) of the ringing. Perhaps you could tell us more.

I guess Steven's stand would give a very different picture - what do you think?

Is it possible to show the velocity graphs using the same scale on the y axis for ease of comparison, and is it also possible to show the acceleration graphs over a much shorter timescale (x axis) also for ease of comparison?

Also not sure I understand what the scale "Time (Revolutions)" actually means.

Thanks. Cheers Bill


Bump test

OK, as an example, here is the stand natural frequencies with and without my MDAC sat on the top shelf.

stand%20natural_zpsn9yvrrdn.jpg


without mdac

stand%20without%20mdac_zpsp5snt5as.jpg


with mdac

stand%20with%20mdac_zps8pbv1wla.jpg
 
No, everyone on all sides accept turntables are microphonic and very sensitive to their environment. There is no debate there and little with regard to tube equipment. The interesting part of the debate rotates around the influence, or lack thereof, of fancy audiophile supports with regard to solid state equipment such as DACs and amplifiers. I suggest we keep the debate here rather than consider vinyl or vacuum tubes.

Blimey. Well I've never noticed that. So can this be measured somehow? You'd need fairly loud volumes to even vibrate PCB components etc much at all?

Edit; by measured, I measured in audio outputs that is.
 
Actually, I'm afraid I may not have made my point all that well. I'm not arguing that it would be preposterous in aeronautics at all. (Any number of aftermarket modifications are available to improve the performance of light aircraft, for example, and they work, too).

They work, they will be verified and checked for performance and safety.

Rather, I'm saying that to draw the analogy is not valid, because you are arguing that we trust aircraft designers and wouldn't tweak. I'm saying that we have no opportunity to tweak in that case, so your conclusion that we trust aircraft designers, but not audio designers, is based on a shaky premise.

It would be if I was arguing against tweaking, I'm not, I'm arguing against pseudo- science or are you suggesting that aeronautics is a place where it should be allowed free reign too?I suspect there are very good reasons why such tomfoolery isn't allowed and that is the reason people trust the engineering..
 
Tomfoolery is a no-no where there are safety and performance issues with things that move ar high velocity.

Sitting there and enjoying your tunes, now that's a whole other thing.
 
I think the 'pseudo science' in relation to ReVo stands can be ignored. What cannot be ignored is the perceived sonic change derived from trying out the rack.

AudioWorks are very reluctant to sell without a comprehensive demonstration over a number of hours.

I've worked out their margin, btw, having investigated manufacturer cost and it is about right considering the time and effort involved in group testing and pints of beer that Larry buys afterwards in the pub for participants on a Thursday evening pre-pub.

If demands for more objective rigour in the otherwise subjective testing were met, the cost to the consumer would be considerably higher.
 
Although this is a self-confessed troll I shall respond.

I think it is very unlikely that all of the following improvements are the result of added distortion:

● Improved transient response.

● More depth to soundstage.

● A more precise and focussed image.

● Improved perceived dynamic range and contrast.

● Better resolution of high-frequency information like harmonics and decay.

● Better perception of changes in pitch, ie. melody.

● Improved perception of the separation of different musical strands (voices or instruments) producing harmony.

● Greater ease in following individual rhythmic patterns and the interplay between them in recordings.

● A greater sense of the acoustic space (either artificial effects or real) in which the recording was made, especially decay and reverb.

● Improved perception of instrumental tone and 'texture' across the entire frequency range.

● A reduction in perceived 'glare' that can make busy recordings sound a little muddled.

Read each one above one more time. I think you'll agree that it's a bit more than "Steven likes the effect" or Orwellian Newspeak "double plus good."

I can understand the resistance from the naysayers. Nobody would want to believe that they were missing out on the improvements that I've outlined above, would they?

If (and it's a big if..) these improvements were as a result of added distortion, you'd be able to measure it, wouldn't you?

Steven, I think it really is you that dont understand here.

Those are simply your personal descriptions of what you think you are hearing. Your personal perceptions and the labels you choose to attach.

There is simply no evidence that any of those changes are actually happening.

Just to take one - Improved transient response. So you think the bandwidth/slew rate of your amplifier has increased because its on a different surface. Honestly this is babble. you have just applied meaningless labels to personal perceptions. Your are saying your amp previously didnt have adequate bandwidth to cover the normal audio range, but now it does because its on a special stand!. What you label as transient response simply isnt,.....assuming of course any change actually exists.

What about - Better resolution of high-frequency information like harmonics and decay.- do you know what a harmonic is? It has nothing to do with high frequency, it can be at any frequency. Decay has no relation specifically to high frequency. I could be rude, but I think other forum members get the gist even if you prefer to carry on in your own world.

You have precisely zero evidence to show that the performance of your amplifier has actually improved.


Do you realise that putting those peek screws into the stand so it doesnt wobble has stiffened the structure? Its probably reduced the damping and raised the resonant frequencies. Everything you seem to be doing that yields alleged improvements is pretty counter to engineering design to achieve the effect of reducing vibration.

I really am starting to think that perhaps your valve amp may well be grossly microphonic....and yes we can measure that.


Missing out on improvements? ...mmmmmm.....I know what I do want to miss out on, assuming theses affects are happening, an amplifier that is obviously adversely affected by small amounts of acoustically induced vibration via its stand.
 
BE718, the evidence is that Steven said so.

You have chosen not to believe this evidence, which is for you to decide.

I do believe him because I've experienced such changes myself. I wouldn't have known how to describe those changes adequately but Steven's descriptions are believable from my limited understandings.

I'm not sure all development of audio tweaks are scientific processes. More likely a developer stumbles on something that improves the sound and then tries to work out why it does so, in that way hoping to improve his product. He becomes, perhaps, more of an expert in the field of his product by his research but can't afford to have rigorous studies done on them.

A fictitious example would be if someone had noticed that laboratories used anti-vibration platforms for their delicate instruments and wondered if they would have an effect on audio equipment. Without any scientific rigour, he places his audio box on the platform and listens. He hears what Steven hears.

That, presumably, is what Keith has done. It's not that his turntable is poorly designed or that he looked at some scientific evidence (I presume again).

On a side note, earlier somewhere you expressed an interest in measurements taken before and after room treatment. I found this in the Reference section:

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=49392

(I tried to send you a private message but I may be too much a Junior!)
 
BE718, the evidence is that Steven said so.

You have chosen not to believe this evidence, which is for you to decide.

I do believe him because I've experienced such changes myself. I wouldn't have known how to describe those changes adequately but Steven's descriptions are believable from my limited understandings.

I'm not sure all development of audio tweaks are scientific processes. More likely a developer stumbles on something that improves the sound and then tries to work out why it does so, in that way hoping to improve his product. He becomes, perhaps, more of an expert in the field of his product by his research but can't afford to have rigorous studies done on them.

A fictitious example would be if someone had noticed that laboratories used anti-vibration platforms for their delicate instruments and wondered if they would have an effect on audio equipment. Without any scientific rigour, he places his audio box on the platform and listens. He hears what Steven hears.

That, presumably, is what Keith has done. It's not that his turntable is poorly designed or that he looked at some scientific evidence (I presume again).

On a side note, earlier somewhere you expressed an interest in measurements taken before and after room treatment. I found this in the Reference section:

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=49392

(I tried to send you a private message but I may be too much a Junior!)

With respect Stevens say so is not evidence that his amplifier performance has improved.

Please note my very specific terminology there. I didnt actually say that there has been no change. Considering the evidence presented, ie that Steven is pretty much doing the wrong things to isolate vibration from his stand, I remain of the opinion that changes he perceives are quite possibly not improvements to his microphonic valve amps performance....and that he just like the different sound.

Im sorry but without actual evidence, there is no conclusion that the equipment performance has improved. All that can be said is that the sound may be different and the individual hearing the difference likes it.

What Steven hears? Thats the whole point, what does Steven hear? More correctly, what does he perceive? We know perceptions may not be accurate. You know, he cant hear his room modes :)

What he has described above is quite fanciful, with incorrect terminology at best.



Thanks for the link, havent had a chance to look yet.
 
Ok, well let's say then that there are people - I'm one of them - that can hear differences from using so called anti-vibration products.

You have done some vibration measurements which, and I must trust your experience here as I'm no expert, you say lead to vanishingly small vibrations which you think will have no noticeable effect on the sound we hear.

Is that a fair summary?

I find it interesting that the delicate instruments in laboratories do benefit from similar platforms. This leads to some obvious questions.

Are our audio boxes as sensitive as these lab instruments? How sensitive are the lab instruments? What exactly are the sources of vibrations they are trying to counteract.

Perhaps studying the research associated with lab anti-vibration products may help us. There's no harm in asking them, so I will!
 
I find it interesting that the delicate instruments in laboratories do benefit from similar platforms.

These instruments are generally microscopes, optical benches, and chip or MEMS bond equipment. The aim is to avoid building vibrations (seismic, traffic, structural motions when at height, ...) interfering with physical/dimensional measurements and/or micromanipulations. Things like keeping a laser aimed at a 1.5 micrometer spot, or positioning by hand a 10 x 10 x 10 mm glass cube with 10 micrometer accuracy.

It is generally not the case that the electronic measurement instruments need to be protected from vibration. The lab case really is like the turntable case, and not the amp/DAC case.

mtf_arm_970x350.jpg


bonder.jpg
 
I used to have a stand similar to this. Moving to a Quadraspire Reference stand was quite a big upgrade back in 2001.

Those uprights are made from some kind of alloy or stainless steel and they are hollow. The shelves are made from glass and are not damped sufficiently. With a pen, tap one of the uprights and a shelf.

I bet they ring like the proverbial bell. That ringing is singing along with your music.

Your kit will sound better plonked on the floor, especially if you moved that stand to another room.

Steven, we have measurements of just how much the glass vibrates with equipment on it. Bugger all . Your statement about damping is incorrect. The glass showed no particular resonant peaks, unlike the amplifier case, when excited by reasonably high acoustic pressure. (Pink noise at 90 dB(A))

Tapping with a pen is a very different excitation force than the acoustic pressure in the room. In any case they actually don't ring very much.

See the bump test data for more information on the stands natural frequencies.

Frankly Steven your post shows just how much you don't know about this subject.
 
Just to be clear, I use an active air table under my turntable, and only under my turntable, Two manufacturers were kind enough to demonstrate here , their laboratory isolation solutions, we were able to measure the resonance of the floor ( tongue and groove ,14mm engineered) and then the turntable placed directly on the floor, on it's own GPA turntable platform and then the turntable placed on the active platforms.
Ultimately I chose the Speirs & Robertson active rolling air diaphragm design over the Accurion.
The air diaphragms would isolate/decouple a loudspeaker from the floor, and they might be useful under a microphonus valve amp, although personally I would consider such an amp flawed.
Keith.
 
Firstly, apologies for inadvertently implying you had used the term ‘you imagined it’. I know you didn’t, that was just my verbal shorthand.

I appreciate that a well-regulated and good performing power supply are not mutually exclusive, but they may be if you also want to include ‘inexpensive’ as a parameter. And ‘inexpensive’ is a relative term. This is not my view, but one expressed by designers whose knowledge and understanding I respect and whose products I’ve used and liked.

I do think you are straying into unwise territory with your assumptions about perception, unless you are qualified to hold those opinions. So, when you say ‘People most definitely do get psychologically influenced. They are more likely to perceive what they want to. There is no escaping that’ then you need to be able to show that you can tell what people want. That is not perception, it is psychology.

How do you determine what somebody wants (to hear) if he perceives an improvement on a stand he can’t afford, for example? What about somebody who hears something without having any preconceived ideas, say somebody new to this hobby, who has never experienced different stands? (Like a friend of mine who asked me what the hell I’d done when he came back into the room after making some tea. He had no idea I’d even made a change to the system. I’d simply put 3 Quadraspire acrylic ‘feet’ between his CD player and a glass shelf in his AV cabinet).

I do think your counter-question – why you can’t hear an effect if it is real - is a telling one, and I don’t have any answers.

I could say ‘you want to be sure that your understanding of events is valid, in technical terms, so your subconscious won’t permit you to perceive any changes’. That would be drivel, because I’m not a psychologist. It might still be drivel even if I had a PhD in perception, because I still wouldn’t be a psychologist… So, unsubstantiated claims about what we perceive, and our ‘motivation’ for that perception are no more, or less, rigorous or valid than unsubstantiated claims that microphony and supports affect the sound of a system.

And thus, we progress, after a fashion…

No worries. Yes most equipment is designed to a price point. I would hope that if design compromises are made then they would be in non critical areas. Perhaps in that case it's better to buy a more expensive amp than a fancy stand which has dubious and variable vibration isolation abilities?

I,m not aware of making any assumptions about people's perceptions. I have simply pointed out that these perceptions can be changed by many parameters and internal/external factors.

This obviously appears to be a somewhat contentious proposition for some as they fear it may take some validity away from their experience.
 
Steven, I think it really is you that dont understand here.

Those are simply your personal descriptions of what you think you are hearing. Your personal perceptions and the labels you choose to attach.

There is simply no evidence that any of those changes are actually happening.

Just to take one - Improved transient response. So you think the bandwidth/slew rate of your amplifier has increased because its on a different surface. Honestly this is babble. you have just applied meaningless labels to personal perceptions. Your are saying your amp previously didnt have adequate bandwidth to cover the normal audio range, but now it does because its on a special stand!. What you label as transient response simply isnt,.....assuming of course any change actually exists.

What about - Better resolution of high-frequency information like harmonics and decay.- do you know what a harmonic is? It has nothing to do with high frequency, it can be at any frequency. Decay has no relation specifically to high frequency. I could be rude, but I think other forum members get the gist even if you prefer to carry on in your own world.

You have precisely zero evidence to show that the performance of your amplifier has actually improved.


Do you realise that putting those peek screws into the stand so it doesnt wobble has stiffened the structure? Its probably reduced the damping and raised the resonant frequencies. Everything you seem to be doing that yields alleged improvements is pretty counter to engineering design to achieve the effect of reducing vibration.

I really am starting to think that perhaps your valve amp may well be grossly microphonic....and yes we can measure that.


Missing out on improvements? ...mmmmmm.....I know what I do want to miss out on, assuming theses affects are happening, an amplifier that is obviously adversely affected by small amounts of acoustically induced vibration via its stand.

Your true objectivist colours are now emerging. You are basically saying that I imagined these improvements.

I am talking about transients in music when a musician strikes a drum, cymbal, plucks a string or a piano key. I am not referring to slew rates... This shows how literal and black and white your thinking is and how directly related you believe the perception and the measurements to be.

The above subjective description was in response to your stating that I like the added distortion.

You keep focussing on the valve amplifier and this goes to show that your mind is closed and you just have a point to prove.

Firstly, the entire system not just the amplifier sits on the ReVo stand. Secondly, when I first heard the demonstration the amplifier in use was an Accuphase which is solid state. I did not bring my valve amplifier with me as it weighs 40 Kg and I was in no mood to lug it iin and out of the car.

The effect is more pronounced at home, probably given that the fact that the valve amplifiers I use are more microphonic.

The problem we now have is that a discussion between us is near-impossible because common ground between us is virtually zero and your science completely denies my experience and that of many others who use this stand. From where I am sitting that makes your science spectacularly wrong. From where you are sitting the only way out is to deny my experience and/or pick holes with the semantics of the subjective description. This will do nothing to inform the debate whatsoever because it doesn't even begin to consider how the stand is actually working. We are back in the cyclic obj/subj rut - see my signature!

You are playing to the gallery only.
 
Steven the obvious first step, whic has been suggested many times,in this thread alone, is that you undertake an unsighted comparison.
You have listed a considerable number of improvements using your rack, I would expect it to be straightforward for you to consistently pick when a component is placed upon it.
The ball really is in your court.
Keith.
 
The ball really is in your court.

It is not. One cannot oblige Steven to provide rigorous proof. And if Steven is not interested in investigating this further then he is under no obligation from himself. The result is then that he needs to accept that his claims cannot have not much credibility.
 
Ok, well let's say then that there are people - I'm one of them - that can hear differences from using so called anti-vibration products.

You have done some vibration measurements which, and I must trust your experience here as I'm no expert, you say lead to vanishingly small vibrations which you think will have no noticeable effect on the sound we hear.

Is that a fair summary?
It summarises one part of what BE is saying. But since BE has agreed that this is a fair summary of what he is saying, why not take this as your starting point:

1) most vibration coming from sound playing in a room comes through the air. if I have understood correctly, you can't stop that vibration using any stand.

2) You can't effectively stop vibration coming from the floor using a rigid stand.

3) you can't, using a rigid stand, drain from a component the vibration coming though the air or coming from the component itself .

4) solid state components are not really affected by vibration anyway, if they were it would be common knowledge in the design of pretty much all sensitive electronic equipment not just the ones with moving parts.

5) if they were affected in this way, and for other things which really are affected, like turntables and maybe valves, in order to isolate or reduce the effect of vibration you need a specific design strategy based on compliant coupling , damping and/or changes to the effective mass of the thing you are protecting which will have to be based on specific properties of the thing you are protecting and the frequencies of concern

6) stands which are not designed in this way can only have either no effect or at best a random effect as they might change the amount or quality of vibration coming through the floor, but not eliminate or probably reduce it. Most of the time they probably have little effect. However, even then, let's not forget 1)
I find it interesting that the delicate instruments in laboratories do benefit from similar platforms.
The bits of equipment which benefit from isolation are basically things which measure movement or physical location or need to look at small or distant things, not solid state electronics. In contrast we know that solid state electronics can function very well in environments with massive amounts of vibration and without needing to control that vibration.
This leads to some obvious questions.
if you are starting from the right place.
Are our audio boxes as sensitive as these lab instruments?
are which which audio boxes as sensitive as (eg) electron microscopes? Obviusly not the ones containing only solid state electronics. But maybe sort of something with a moving part which converts movement into an electrical signal like a turntable
How sensitive are the lab instruments? What exactly are the sources of vibrations they are trying to counteract.

Perhaps studying the research associated with lab anti-vibration products may help us. There's no harm in asking them, so I will!
But BE has done exactly that, and he's been trying to tell you the answer for this entire thread and you have been ignoring it. Also, Keith has if I understand him experimented with the use of equipment designed by people who design vibration protection devices for lab equipment.

As BE is telling you, you have to start by working out whether yur equipment is sensitive to any and if so what vibration. It would be unwise to assume that a turntable (just because it is sensitive to vibration) is sensitive in the same way or to the same extent as an electron microscope.

Then (strange as it may sound) you need to work out whether you wish to isolate the equipment from that vibration. You wouldn't (i'm guessing) put an electron microscope in a room with very loud music. Loud music (if there is any) is likely in most settings to be the biggest source of vibration reaching the equipment. Yet there seems to be anecdotal evidence that people dn;t like the sound of turntables placed in a separate room (ie without the acoustic feedback). Go figure.
Then if you do want to isolate the equipment from that vibration, you design your equipment accordingly, having regard to its mass, resonant frequencies, the frequencies you are seeking to isolate etc. The lesson we learn from all of this is that it would be very unlikely that any generic stand (ie one not designed for the specific equipment you wish to protect) would be any good. It is also quite unlikely that it would produce consistent results.
if, therefore, one receives reports of consistent listening results from a product, and those results have not been generated by a test which controls for the possibility that they are not generated by a physical change....
 


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