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Michael Fremer at Rega.

Thanks for sharing. A fantastic company and Roy seems like an absolute gent.

A little eccentric also but I like that about him, some of the best and most interesting characters in the industry come across as slightly mad professor type's and I do love that.
 
A little eccentric also but I like that about him, some of the best and most interesting characters in the industry come across as slightly mad professor type's and I do love that.

Absolutely this - and thanks to Linnfo for pointing us to these great video clips, have enjoyed watching them.
 
More impressive as Rega don't do paid advertising.

Their quality control is not infallible though and I don't think anyone would expect so. There have been some folks that experienced problems with amplifiers and Turntables.
 
Enjoyed the whole series, especially eposide 5 with the Naiad & a sneak peek at the new Planer 6. As a current RP6 owner I was patiently waiting for the current RP-6 & 8 being replaced, so glad to see the new 6 in the not so distant future. Looks like the new 6 will have a nice jump in performance with some sort of foam plinth core more like the RP-8. My only question is how much longer do I need to wait for the RP-8 replacement? (as I would like to move up a level but it appears the new 6 will be interesting (& tempting while waiting for the 8)....)
 
More impressive as Rega don't do paid advertising.

Their quality control is not infallible though and I don't think anyone would expect so. There have been some folks that experienced problems with amplifiers and Turntables.

Indeed. With Rega though, you can rest assured that they will see you right in the event of a problem, very few brands measure up to them in this respect.
 
Because it is not substantiated as a Rega problem, and not contrasted with other non-servo belt-drive TTs.

And for example all turntables that use AC motors at mains frequencies are subject to variation of up to about 0.5%. Right now in the UK the grid is running 0.1% slow. A quartz crystal will vary with temperature by about 0.0025%. The numbers for the RP8 I see in the Fremer review and comments are less than 0.01% fast.

If absolute speed matters to you (and there are circumstances where it does) then you need a turntable that is adjustable and a measuring instrument that is more reliable than the turntable. Which is a non-trivial problem in itself. The strobe fitted to Technics turntables, for example, is no good. And anything attached to the mains is no good. And anything with a crystal may be no better than the TT you are trying to measure. Also when you measure it you must be playing a record with an average modulation, which probably eliminates using the W&F test track. And we know the Analogue Productions W&F track has its own (minor) issues.

It's a really interesting problem, probably an irrelevant one to almost all record player users, and I don't see anything to suggest that Rega are way out of line here. At least not so far.

Paul

Paul,

Take a look at fremers review of the new planar 3. Compare it to the uturn orbit.

Again, this is but one aspect of a turntables performance. But why use apologetics here?

Part. Of the reason for advanced PS approaches is to isolate and make irrelevant mains voltage fluctuations. Yes?
 
I found the videos very interesting indeed.

I do suspect now that anyone wanting a s/h Aria is going to want to know if it's the newer version now or the better RP8/RP10 bearings though!
 
Paul,

Take a look at fremers review of the new planar 3. Compare it to the uturn orbit.
I just don't see evidence that this is by design. And for a basic Planar 3 the speed will vary by 1% depending on the state of the grid. Which makes the question in that case moot.

Again, this is but one aspect of a turntables performance. But why use apologetics here?
I think if you're going to criticise a product for its engineering you should have a sound engineering basis for that criticism. Kudos to Fremer for at least trying, but he's not shown that the speeds are deliberately or consistently wrong.

Part. Of the reason for advanced PS approaches is to isolate and make irrelevant mains voltage fluctuations. Yes?
Voltage isn't relevant with these motors, it's all about frequency. A basic Planar 3 with perfect dimensions and belt tension would have been running 0.5% slow this afternoon, now it would be going 0.2% fast. Perhaps its user would be commenting on how the sound improves after dark.

I think the most interesting part of the videos is the actual analysis of rotation that Rega are doing. If Fremer had been reading the DIY room here over the last few years he'd have seen some interesting work and collaboration on turntable speed characteristics taken from test tracks. Rega have gone a step beyond that. I shall pursue that technology.

Paul
 
When people are saying Regas (or whatever) decks are running fast are they checking the speed under typical stylus drag? I'd not be at all surprised if that didn't equate to a good percent or two on a typical small motor belt drive deck. I noticed the P8 that Rega were testing in Fremer's video didn't have any stylus load.

PS When I set my 124's fine speed knob I did so after an hours warm up and when playing a typical Blue Note. That is after all its primary role! I possibly need to do it again as I recently switched from a heavy tracking DL103 to a high compliance low tracking Ortofon 540/II.
 
Interesting for me too! Many thanks to Linnfomaniac and krenzler for the uploads. Watching them and reading the Rega book have given me greater insight and understanding of my nearly 17 year old P9. Part Five was particularly interesting with the focus on the Naiad making it the ultimate progression from the original p9 (in terms of engineering and materials) itself leading to trickle down into more affordable designs. Brilliant :)
 
I've tested and lived with various rega motors on my deck, stylus drag makes less than 0.1 rpm difference to the speed of the deck. With thick oil in the bearing stylus drag is swamped and rendered inconsequential ime.

Nice to see them pushing the envelope, I wonder if one can acquire one of those optical encoder discs and rejig the Mober for improved accuracy...
 
Those encoder discs would allow you to see speed variations caused by varying stylus drag while playing a record. The absolutely critical part of a turntable drive. If I'd been Fremer I'd have asked about their measurements of that. Because I'm sure they've been done.

FWIW 0.1 in 33.33 is 0.3%.

When I was using my Buffalo DAC I had a readout of the measured incoming sample rate, this obviously using the one crystal to measure another. But variations between sources was quite common. My Raspberry Pi was consistently 0.1% slow, for example.

I had some online interaction with Michael Fremer back in the mid 90s. I have a lot of time for him even if he's a bit golden eared.

Paul
 
I like Fremer including his golden ears, he's an amusing bloke who does a lot of good for the audio industry and vinyl in particular. He is actually a member here, though sadly I think we frightened him off!
 
Paul,

With respect, it seems that you're being selective about your points and also misconstruing/distorting what I'm saying for the record.

I just don't see evidence that this is by design. And for a basic Planar 3 the speed will vary by 1% depending on the state of the grid. Which makes the question in that case moot.

1% is a huge variation. A 24 min side in that case would play (let's say fast) in 23:45. That's not just fast it's audible. We also aren't just discussing speed we're talking about W&F as you've mentioned.

I think if you're going to criticise a product for its engineering you should have a sound engineering basis for that criticism.

I'm not criticizing a product for it's engineering, I'm saying it appears that one aspect of the TT's function, from Rega, is a lesser priority than others. This may be directly related to their focus on other elements, and/or sound engineering practices or "compromises" as RG often puts it.

Kudos to Fremer for at least trying, but he's not shown that the speeds are deliberately or consistently wrong.

He simply said that to his experience, and having reviewed multiple rega tables, this was his experience. Granted it's likely only 5 or 6 data points but that's not nothing, it's something. And his measurements provided in the article back up his point.

Voltage isn't relevant with these motors, it's all about frequency. A basic Planar 3 with perfect dimensions and belt tension would have been running 0.5% slow this afternoon, now it would be going 0.2% fast. Perhaps its user would be commenting on how the sound improves after dark.

Right, sure. We're talking about how the tables' speed accuracy performs in consistent frequency conditions. They aren't as stable as other tables under same conditions. IN THIS REGARD.

Also let's keep things separate: the Planar 3 is one thing, it has a basic PS. But even the TTPSU and the provided PSU's on the Rp8 and rp10 allow for greater control.

If someone can get within .1% on a Mober, or on an Eagle/Falcon/Roadrunner, both of which are essentially garage-companies, Rega should likely be able to match in this regard, I'd think. I understand that these companies don't have layers of distribution in their sales' chain, or the overhead, but they also don't have the tooling, history, economies of scale, etc. etc. etc.

I don't know how many times I have to say this, but again, I think REGA's tables are fantastic. If I didn't have a Linn, my next stop would be a Rega, hands down. (perhaps some VPI's nip at the heels, but still....). And again, as linnfomaniac rightly said, perhaps it's not their priority in terms of design. But from what's been reviewed and measured, that I've read, regas seem to be less accurate and stable in terms of overall speed and W&F compared to other offerings from other companies in similar price brackets.
 
When people are saying Regas (or whatever) decks are running fast are they checking the speed under typical stylus drag? I'd not be at all surprised if that didn't equate to a good percent or two on a typical small motor belt drive deck. I noticed the P8 that Rega were testing in Fremer's video didn't have any stylus load.

He tests it by playing a record with a 3150 Hz tone and measuring the output. Yes, it's got a load.
 
Also I should mention, Mr. Fremer is a very nice guy, a lovely host, and his system does sound bloody fantastic.

If you haven't heard a continuum caliburn, lemme tell you, it's f*cking amazing. I don't know what $200k is supposed to sound like, (actually I think it's supposed to sound like a hot blonde's mouth-smacking-sounds over the purr of an Aston V12, but....) but this does sound amazing.

Does he take issue with felt matts? yes. At least he's not two-faced about it. The industry is full of people who are all brave over the interwebs and behind their keyboards but then in person back down or change tune. He's not like that, sticks to what he thinks and says.
 
The point Paul is making relates to claims that Rega TTs run fast under normal usage conditions. He contends that such statements are myth, and he's right.

The models with basic motor PSU (not regenerated ac) such as the P1/2/3 when running on precise mains frequency and under load should run at the correct speed. They do IME.

However the speed will of course vary slightly if the mains frequency drifts, which is does.
In this regard a basic Rega is no worse than an entry level Linn LP12, Thorens, AC motor Michell etc. That's the point being made.
 
1% is a huge variation. A 24 min side in that case would play (let's say fast) in 23:45. That's not just fast it's audible. We also aren't just discussing speed we're talking about W&F as you've mentioned.
If your turntable is dependent on the mains, so RP3 basic, LP12 Basik, many others, then its speed will vary throughout the day. The UK mains frequency right now is 49.917Hz, so your otherwise optimal turntable is running 0.2% slow. The variation can reach 1Hz plus or minus, but I think that is unusual.

Right, sure. We're talking about how the tables' speed accuracy performs in consistent frequency conditions. They aren't as stable as other tables under same conditions. IN THIS REGARD.
I think we're not talking about stability.

If someone can get within .1% on a Mober, or on an Eagle/Falcon/Roadrunner, both of which are essentially garage-companies, Rega should likely be able to match in this regard, I'd think. I understand that these companies don't have layers of distribution in their sales' chain, or the overhead, but they also don't have the tooling, history, economies of scale, etc. etc. etc.
The errors being talked about and reported are much less than 0.1%.

I don't know how many times I have to say this, but again, I think REGA's tables are fantastic.
I agree, although I've not owned one since the 80s.

But from what's been reviewed and measured, that I've read, regas seem to be less accurate and stable in terms of overall speed and W&F compared to other offerings from other companies in similar price brackets.
I think the only potential quibble is absolute speed, W&F is not being flagged.

Paul
 
The point Paul is making relates to claims that Rega TTs run fast under normal usage conditions. He contends that such statements are myth, and he's right.

The models with basic motor PSU (not regenerated ac) such as the P1/2/3 when running on precise mains frequency and under load should run at the correct speed. They do IME.

However the speed will of course vary slightly if the mains frequency drifts, which is does.
In this regard a basic Rega is no worse than an entry level Linn LP12, Thorens, AC motor Michell etc. That's the point being made.

Most tests I've seen seem to indicate that Regas run indeed slightly fast out of the factory to compensate for the tendency to slow down as they age.

It's inaudible apparently.
 


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