advertisement


Met police to hand in weapons and stop killing black Britons

Like politics, the police attract vast swathes of precisely the kind of people that are least suited to the job and their presence deters others from applying.

They have no choice but to rely on unsuitable candidates to keep the numbers up.

Blimey - I lasted well - being from a swathe of people being totally unsuited to the job. I also managed to go a whole 10 years without shooting anybody with a real bullet.

I do not think for one minute the handling of the shooting incident subject of this thread has been handled empathetically and smoothly from the start. I also fully acknowledge there have been cases where PIMS and subsequent 'evidence' seems to have been very interestingly gathered in some other cases. I refer to my 1st post on this thread for my view on this.

Some reading: https://news.met.police.uk/news/update-following-police-shooting-in-lambeth-453722 - no mention on here yet of the original reason for the vehicle stop?

"The watchdog said he was driving a vehicle not registered to him that had been flagged up by an automatic number plate recognition camera as having been linked to a firearms incident in previous days." source - ITV news: https://www.itv.com/news/2022-09-12...o-fatally-shot-chris-kaba-suspended-from-duty

The IOPC enquiry will look at all of the angles from this, including the info marker on PNC, the command and control leading to the stop - which will have been recorded etc etc.

The IOPC are treating it as a homicide inquiry. That leaves all angles and options open to follow. They do not have the luxury that some posters on here have in coming to a conclusion before examining all available evidence - factual or otherwise.

Finally, I always thought that if I'd had to do my job in this regard it would have changed my life forever. I was always briefed that it would be fully and impartially investigated, and the final decision to discharge my f/arm was mine and mine alone. That caveat was in the tactical F/Arms manual right up until I left in 2015. This information has been a matter of public knowledge for many years. https://www.college.police.uk/app/armed-policing/use-force-firearms-and-less-lethal-weapons
 
Last edited:
We average about 40 deaths per year either in custody or following contact. The Met accounts for roughly 25% of these just skimming the figures.

https://www.inquest.org.uk/deaths-in-police-custody

Regarding Chris Kaba

Deborah Coles, Director of INQUEST, said: “When the police kill, they must be held accountable to the rule of law. INQUEST fully supports the family’s call for this to be a criminal investigation from the outset. It is essential that fatal use of force by police is examined with this high level of scrutiny.

There is rightly anger and frustration at yet another Black man whose life has been cut short after the use of lethal force by police. Too often we see misinformation and demonisation of those who die. We hope this is not repeated here, as family and friends mourn the loss of a loved one.”
 
It seems the police are going to show the family the video. Is that not a highly unusual thing to do prior to an investigation? Maybe the police think the video will clarify the incident.
 
The Met accounts for roughly 25% of these just skimming the figures.

and given London accounts for about 13% of the population of the UK

mind you the he crime rate in the United Kingdom was 79.52 per 1,000 people in 2021–2022, and in London was 92.8 crime offences per 1000 in the same period
 
Blimey - I lasted well - being from a swathe of people being totally unsuited to the job. I also managed to go a whole 10 years without shooting anybody with a real bullet.

I do not think for one minute the handling of the shooting incident subject of this thread has been handled empathetically and smoothly from the start. I also fully acknowledge there have been cases where PIMS and subsequent 'evidence' seems to have been very interestingly gathered in some other cases. I refer to my 1st post on this thread for my view on this.

Some reading: https://news.met.police.uk/news/update-following-police-shooting-in-lambeth-453722 - no mention on here yet of the original reason for the vehicle stop?

"The watchdog said he was driving a vehicle not registered to him that had been flagged up by an automatic number plate recognition camera as having been linked to a firearms incident in previous days." source - ITV news: https://www.itv.com/news/2022-09-12...o-fatally-shot-chris-kaba-suspended-from-duty

The IOPC enquiry will look at all of the angles from this, including the info marker on PNC, the command and control leading to the stop - which will have been recorded etc etc.

The IOPC are treating it as a homicide inquiry. That leaves all angles and options open to follow. They do not have the luxury that some posters on here have in coming to a conclusion before examining all available evidence - factual or otherwise.

Finally, I always thought that if I'd had to my job in this regard it would have changed my life forever. I was always briefed that it would be fully and impartially investigated, and the final decision to discharge my f/arm was mine and mine alone. That caveat was in the tactical F/Arms manual right up until I left in 2015. This information has been a matter of public knowledge for many years. https://www.college.police.uk/app/armed-policing/use-force-firearms-and-less-lethal-weapons
Could I ask a question about the process? Is it still the case that Officers involved in a shooting are allowed to get together to agree amongst themselves what happened which is why, in the past, their versions have been essentially identical?
 
I do hope that investigation will be balanced and fair.

My thoughts are with all involved.

It must however be recognised that within living memory for some, there has been a lot of impropriety; abuse of power; racism, etc within various Police Forces.

And due to the at times clumsy handling, groups of people will likely feel they are not being taken seriously or worse still, ignored.

It isn't rosy for a black person in the UK. The 'hostile environment' means that one is subjected to prejudice and racism on a daily basis.

I have reported Swastikas in the workplace and on streets- within the last year or so.

I feel Brexit has indeed stirred up a lot of prejudice and hatred; that is not to say all that voted for it are racist.

I have been stopped on one occasion. Surrey. Car was OK, I wasn't on any list. A friend of mine in another police force asked to see the 'yellow slip' and agreed there was no good reason to be stopped.

I do have a couple of friends who work as Police Officers and they're similarly frustrated as they have to live this shit down on a daily basis.
 
The met is responsible for a population of 9 million in Greater London - roughly 8% of the UK. The figures are for England & Wales though but Scotland doesn't change things very much
 
The IOPC are treating it as a homicide inquiry. That leaves all angles and options open to follow. They do not have the luxury that some posters on here have in coming to a conclusion before examining all available evidence - factual or otherwise.
A luxury for us, for them an obligation.
 
I have an extremely high level of confidence that in the UK, should you find yourself being of interest to armed police, if you do what you are told, stay calm and are not a threat, you won’t get shot.
This really depends on the definition of "threat" doesn't it. There are many people who consider young black men as such a threat. Circumstances can offer conspire to produce a sense of threat: in this case a car with a history, in other cases a table leg and a tip off (note the racialisation: I know from personal experience that the Met consider the Irish a de facto threat):

"On 22 September 1999, Stanley was returning home from the Alexandra Pub in South Hackney carrying, in a plastic bag, a table leg that had been repaired by his brother earlier that day. Someone had phoned the police to report "an Irishman with a gun wrapped in a bag".[2]

At the junction of Fremont Street and Victoria Park Road in South Hackney, close to his home, Inspector Neil Sharman and PC Kevin Fagan, the crew of a Metropolitan Police Armed Response Vehicle challenged Stanley from behind. As he turned to face them, they shot him dead at a distance of 15 feet (5 m).[3]"

The other thing is, who can really be confident that, finding themselves "of interest to armed police", they would be able to do what they are told, stay calm, and radiate unthreatening vibes? Have you ever seen the armed Met in action? I've seen it from a healthy distance and it's terrifying. These people are terrifying.

Not to be unduly personal but I get the sense - largely from the things you expect from other people - that your way of being in the world is typified by self-control and a sense of personal command of your surroundings. Many people experience the world quite differently, and their actions under pressure can reflect this. I guess it's why the police end up killing so many mentally ill and neurodiverse people: unreasonable expectations about how an innocent and unthreatening person should act.
 
I was literally a street away minutes before that shooting. The guy had walked passed me calm as the day was long not a minute beforehand and turned the corner onto the street where he was gunned down. Police cars were flying around sirens blazing.
 
This really depends on the definition of "threat" doesn't it. There are many people who consider young black men as such a threat. Circumstances can offer conspire to produce a sense of threat: in this case a car with a history, in other cases a table leg and a tip off (note the racialisation: I know from personal experience that the Met consider the Irish a de facto threat):

"On 22 September 1999, Stanley was returning home from the Alexandra Pub in South Hackney carrying, in a plastic bag, a table leg that had been repaired by his brother earlier that day. Someone had phoned the police to report "an Irishman with a gun wrapped in a bag".[2]

At the junction of Fremont Street and Victoria Park Road in South Hackney, close to his home, Inspector Neil Sharman and PC Kevin Fagan, the crew of a Metropolitan Police Armed Response Vehicle challenged Stanley from behind. As he turned to face them, they shot him dead at a distance of 15 feet (5 m).[3]"

The other thing is, who can really be confident that, finding themselves "of interest to armed police", they would be able to do what they are told, stay calm, and radiate unthreatening vibes? Have you ever seen the armed Met in action? I've seen it from a healthy distance and it's terrifying. These people are terrifying.

Not to be unduly personal but I get the sense - largely from the things you expect from other people - that your way of being in the world is typified by self-control and a sense of personal command of your surroundings. Many people experience the world quite differently, and their actions under pressure can reflect this. I guess it's why the police end up killing so many mentally ill and neurodiverse people: unreasonable expectations about how an innocent and unthreatening person should act.


You missed a bit. Apparently his form was unknown to the police. Odd how this event happened to someone with a dubious past. No smoke without fire?

He had a previous criminal record, being convicted of armed robbery in 1974, and had served 4 years in prison for grievous bodily harm.[1] This was unknown to the police officers who responded to the call about "an Irishman with a gun wrapped in a bag".[2]
 
Since you are a relatively well-off white Tory, I have an extremely high level of confidence that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Good of you to stereotype but in what respect do I have no idea?
 
As a religious person once told me, the only way that a justice system ever stands a chance of being fair is if nobody ever breaks the law. And that means everybody, not just you as an individual.

Perhaps city kids need training at school in how to respond to orders from armed police.
 
I was literally a street away minutes before that shooting. The guy had walked passed me calm as the day was long not a minute beforehand and turned the corner onto the street where he was gunned down. Police cars were flying around sirens blazing.
That must have been a pretty grim experience.
 
You missed a bit. Apparently his form was unknown to the police. Odd how this event happened to someone with a dubious past. No smoke without fire?

He had a previous criminal record, being convicted of armed robbery in 1974, and had served 4 years in prison for grievous bodily harm.[1] This was unknown to the police officers who responded to the call about "an Irishman with a gun wrapped in a bag".[2]
I'm not sure what you're saying here. He deserved to be shot and killed, because he committed an armed robbery a quarter century ago? Because he had a criminal past, he might really have shot them with the table leg? That the police lied when they said his past was unknown to them? That this was a deliberate execution of a criminal figure?

I think all of the implications are pretty ugly, and quite a long way from your original "stay calm and everything will be OK". It does sort of suggest that beneath that reasonable, if ignorant and naive point there might be a way of looking at the world that's quite a bit darker.
 
Can't remember if I've mentioned this before, but my partner's friend's nephew has been stopped and searched many times in London.

He is of slight build, doesn't look remotely menacing, doesn't do drugs, and doesn't live in an especially "rough" area.

I've met him a couple of times. He's very quiet and polite - wouldn't say boo to a goose.

And, oh yeah, almost forgot to mention it, his father is Afro-Caribbean, so he has a non-white appearance.

But that last point's irrelevant, obviously.
 
Last edited:
As a religious person once told me, the only way that a justice system ever stands a chance of being fair is if nobody ever breaks the law. And that means everybody, not just you as an individual.

Perhaps city kids need training at school in how to respond to orders from armed police.
Not sure if this is a joke, or just dystopian and a bit mental.
 


advertisement


Back
Top