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MDAC first listen (part XXII)

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Hi,

I'm have tested my new M-DAC connected via koax from CD player (used as transport) and during this test I registered several dropouts (if I call it correctly). No pops, only short moments of silence. If I rewinded back to problem place in track, the same dropout occured again, so it's not random failure. I tried another CD (both regular original audio CDs, not burned ones) and the same situation again - so it's not a exception or problem of one specific CD ...

I think M-DAC is not able to restore some data problems (scratches on CD ?). But if I play the same CD on CD player without DAC, there is no problem, no dropout, CD player is able to restore audio without audible errors. Some time ago I tested Arcam rDAC and Styledio Sapphire in the same way and I did not notice even one such problem.

I patched M-DAC with newest firmware, but it has had no influence on dropouts.
 
Hi,

I'm have tested my new M-DAC connected via koax from CD player (used as transport) and during this test I registered several dropouts (if I call it correctly). No pops, only short moments of silence. If I rewinded back to problem place in track, the same dropout occured again, so it's not random failure. I tried another CD (both regular original audio CDs, not burned ones) and the same situation again - so it's not a exception or problem of one specific CD ...

I think M-DAC is not able to restore some data problems (scratches on CD ?). But if I play the same CD on CD player without DAC, there is no problem, no dropout, CD player is able to restore audio without audible errors. Some time ago I tested Arcam rDAC and Styledio Sapphire in the same way and I did not notice even one such problem.

I patched M-DAC with newest firmware, but it has had no influence on dropouts.

If your sure the "Muted" section is in the identical location, try a different transport - it appears your CD player does not apply C2 Error correction on the Digital output (Odd).

The C2 Error can be flagged as non valid data - MDAC does not try to interpolate (Guessimate) this missing data - other Dac's might.
 
Well today's been both interesting while frustrating at the same time.

I try to avoid the darker side of HiFi – the tweaky side… enter the “darkside” and it’s a slippery slope that can only end in total madness!

Enter a simple resistor – one of the most basic Passive components... simple you would think, surly cannot have much effect upon sound quality so long as you use the same type (Metal film). Well, either Renata, Jiri & I have lost the plot or things are not a simple as one would like to assume.

The first 10 MDAC’s upgraded I used resistors I had in my personal stock – these maybe over 20 years old now (before the days of RoHS). Once these old stock parts had been depleted thinking nothing of it, I just ordered the “equivalent parts” from Farnell - Metal film, 1% 120R (MULTICOMP MF25 series made in Thailand). On final listening test I noticed that the L/R sound stage had collapsed, the sound was now lean and thin sounding – with hardness… at first I just presumed the MDAC was cold – but after warming the units up for 24 hours and listening again no improvement in sound quality!

I invited Jiri over last weekend, and during our listening tests we used Jem’s unit I had on test at the time that had the Multicomp resistors fitted… and then replaced them with the last of the original resistors I could find scattered on my lab bench – Bam! instantly the L-R sound stage and Bass was restored with no hint of hardness…! It was such a difference that from the very first opening second of the track as the Violin started playing on the very far right side you could hear the difference…! (Wailin Jennys - Glory Bound).

Now the problem was that I had no idea of the original manufacturer of the resistors I had used – they had been carefully sorted all those years back into individual component “trays” for each resistor value – but without relevant manufacture data etc.

So I ordered a what others had recommended as a “good sounding” resistor (the type you see fitted to expensive America Krell, Mark Levinson, Spectral etc) by Vishay Dale CMF55 series manufactured in Mexico / US.

The Dale resistors have a “Dark” full bodied sound – trading L/R sound stage for a narrower presentation but with more depth. Renata loves the sound in fact she “foot tapped” along so much that during the listening test Renata cracked the tea table we where sitting on:-

Renata One, Cheap Ikea tea table ZERO!

I cannot deny that with that Dale resistors fitted the L2MDAC has real foot tapping “rhythm” – still detailed, but I find myself yearning for the “missing” L/R sound stage and sligtly extra definition and “more open sound” of the L2MDAC upgrade using the original resistors.

In reality, I find most systems (Amplifiers and Speakers) tend to lean towards a Brighter and lighter presentation – so maybe a slightly “darker – full bodied” sounding DAC would be a better system match – think A08 software sound over V0.90

Not happy with this state of affairs I made a few more modifications to the MDAC with the Dale resistors which has now achieved simply the best overall sound quality I’ve yet heard from the MDAC – although the L/R sound stage is still not as open as the original L2 versions… but it has so much more “Body” Depth and detail… I’m happy to leave as is however….

I needed to try and findout the original brand and type of the resistors I had used, so going though about 100 plastic draws with different resistor values (not so easy as many of the plastic draws being over 20 years old just fractured as I tried to slide them open) I managed to find a tray of resistors which where sill in there original RS Component packets – with a valid part number :)

So the “original” resistors I used appear to be manufactured by TE Connectivity (Tyco) – however before the days of RoHS so there’s not guarantee that today’s RoHS complaint parts will still sound as good… so what to do?

The L2MDAC with Dale resistors has a massive full bodied sound, loads of detail and will have you foot tapping along sending the fear of God into Ikea tea tables – or L2MDAC with Tyco resistors that’s ever so slightly less foot tapping (maybe) but with extra wide L/R sound stage (a slightly less full bodied sound between the speakers as the image is spread much further / wider apart, past the speakers) with even greater detail… I’d be very happy with both – they are both a significant upgrade over the standard MDAC – but what’s preferable is dependent on system matching and personal preference.

I could sum up the sonic signature:-

Dale resistors akin to A08 software signature

Tyco Resistors akin to 0.90

I must stress that I still need to order and test “today’s” RoHS complaint Tyco resistors to see if they still sound as good as the original NOS 20 year parts I had used…

Jem, WAD62, SimonOM & JohanH your call? I can ship your units out on Monday with the Dale resistors fitted…

JohanH – for your system I’d suggest the slightly “darker sounding” L2Dale version as it would appear your system trends towards the brighter side…

Granted it’s a tough call… which ever you choose the SQ of the upgraded L2MDAC is impressive… Personally I’d go for the Tyco (assuming today’s modern versions are as good as the originals) – but my system is ultra smooth – never bright or hard sounding, but this is not common of most modern systems.

Renata would go for the Dale version!!... so it really comes down to personal preference! Ultra foot tapping or Ultra L/R sound stage with a tad extra detail and clarity!!!
 
John, it'll be interesting to see how different the ROHS Tyco parts are. I use RC55's in everything I build for my own use. They are utterly consistent and one less thing to worry about, and the .1% spec never hurts.
 
Going by what you say, John, Dale for me. How is the Dale version with instrumental texture, pitch and harmonics?

I would trade dynamics, depth and hopefully tunefulness over wide stage any day!

Renata sounds like a proper flat earther! :cool:

Thinking about it, my valve power amp rolls off a bit above 10KHz.
 
John, it'll be interesting to see how different the ROHS Tyco parts are.

Same thoughts here - I've only just discovered the original resistor brand this evening - RS stock them, however as I have a Czech Address I have to use RS's Czech website (all in Czech) to open an account and order from them - I'm too tired to fight the "system" tonight - why do they have to make things so complex... we are in Europe, why do I have to use the Czech website - just because I'm currently in Czech...

3.35am here now - going to hit the sack... I hate RS!
 
Going by what you say, John, Dale for me. How is the Dale version with instrumental texture, pitch and harmonics?

I would trade dynamics, depth and hopefully tunefulness over wide stage any day!

Yes, I think you will prefer the L2Dale version... As I say they are both excellent - just slightly different in presentation...

Renata sounds like a proper flat earther! :cool:

Not sure, But I can say the Ikea Tea Table's feeling rather flatter!
 
Jem, WAD62, SimonOM & JohanH your call? I can ship your units out on Monday with the Dale resistors fitted…

JohanH – for your system I’d suggest the slightly “darker sounding” L2Dale version as it would appear your system trends towards the brighter side…

Granted it’s a tough call… which ever you choose the SQ of the upgraded L2MDAC is impressive… Personally I’d go for the Tyco (assuming today’s modern versions are as good as the originals) – but my system is ultra smooth – never bright or hard sounding, but this is not common of most modern systems.

Renata would go for the Dale version!!... so it really comes down to personal preference! Ultra foot tapping or Ultra L/R sound stage with a tad extra detail and clarity!!!

Hello John,

again thanks very much for your efforts; seems like yesterday was a very long day for you (approx 22 hrs if I'm not mistaken).

I'll go with Dale. And just to be sure: did you also replace the relay?

Resistors are indeed a tough call. Once i built 2 exact same amplifiers with 1 type resistor in the first and another type in the second. The difference was not small, but the effort of finding the resistor today will be.....
Afterthought: did it first have the Multicomp resistors?

Looking forward to having the MDAC back.

Cheers,
Johan
 
Granted it’s a tough call… which ever you choose the SQ of the upgraded L2MDAC is impressive… Personally I’d go for the Tyco (assuming today’s modern versions are as good as the originals) – but my system is ultra smooth – never bright or hard sounding, but this is not common of most modern systems.

Renata would go for the Dale version!!... so it really comes down to personal preference! Ultra foot tapping or Ultra L/R sound stage with a tad extra detail and clarity!!!
John, I'm sorry, but I just cannot trade the soundstage I heard for any kind of floor tapping. :) ... so Tyco ones for me, assuming they're still good.

I also had a long night, going to bed right about now, http://i.imgur.com/mFn6lxV.jpg - now assembled again & testing. More parts than any human can bear! And the integrated speakers (on the left) aren't much better than the old integrated PC speakers from the 90s! Do you see the thin wires with cores nearly thinner than a human hair? ... Uuh, I guess I've really become a HiFi person.
 
If your sure the "Muted" section is in the identical location, try a different transport

it looked so, but I listened another CD this morning and those dropouts appeared again, but they appered randomly this time. When I rewinded to the same place it was ok, but problem was on another place ...

I use CD player Denon DCD615 and as I wrote above, I detected no problems with other DACs before ...
 
The C2 Error can be flagged as non valid data - MDAC does not try to interpolate (Guessimate) this missing data - other Dac's might.

if so, is there some parameter in menu to change this behaviour ? I found nothing ..
 
Well today's been both interesting while frustrating at the same time.

I try to avoid the darker side of HiFi – the tweaky side… enter the “darkside” and it’s a slippery slope that can only end in total madness!

Enter a simple resistor – one of the most basic Passive components... simple you would think, surly cannot have much effect upon sound quality so long as you use the same type (Metal film). Well, either Renata, Jiri & I have lost the plot or things are not a simple as one would like to assume.
Niels Larsen of NLE or better known as D.A.T.C. (attenuators) told me many, many years ago when I bought one attenuator: "this is one of the last with the good sounding SMD resistors I have" he told me he was searching all over for some with similar "no sound signature".

I even think some passive components may sound different from batch to next batch ( scary thought isn't it?)

beer, wine, whiskey, cheese, tastes different from year to year, this not to measure either, so why should our hearing, (always alert 24 hours a day) be less sensitive to changes

Try to tell these things to "normal" engineers or measurement freaks, one could easily end up in a closed place for nut-cases someday soon ;0)

PS : I'm enjoying my L2MDAC more and more, I don't dare to say its getting better , maybe I just adapt, but the musical enjoyment I get these days is beyond belief, sadly some tracks I have to attenuate 40 dB

my SE /TVC test went down in listening to cables, as the balanced out sounds so very much better
 
Jem, WAD62, SimonOM & JohanH your call? I can ship your units out on Monday with the Dale resistors fitted…
Renata would go for the Dale version!!... so it really comes down to personal preference! Ultra foot tapping or Ultra L/R sound stage with a tad extra detail and clarity!!!

Dear John,
If it's good enough for Renata and booted toe-tapping in general, it'll be much more than good enough for me. +1 for the Dale version, please.
(And if, to boot :rolleyes: with this choice, I can flatten the cheap, red Ikea table that I inherited and hate, that would be great. Too bad about the grim fish tank, also inherited, upon it...)
Permanently in awe of your dedication to perfection,
Thank you, Simon
 
if so, is there some parameter in menu to change this behaviour ? I found nothing ..
Having first selected the input you are using, go to the menu and local 'jitter rejection'. Set this away from 'automatic' to 'medium' or 'high' bandwidth and see how you get on.
 
John, My only concern with the Dale version is your use of the word "darker." If this simply means less "air" then I'm not bothered by it.

If, however, it means that there is a loss of the harmonic info that "lifts" notes and makes them more "tuneful" then I would prefer the Tyco option as fitted to the first batch. I like "tuneful."

I remember choosing between two types of Mullard rectifier valve, the GZ34 and the GZ37. The GZ34 was more "tuneful" because it reproduced harmonic decay better. The GZ37 had a little more "slam" but sounded tonally "darker."

I chose the GZ34. I would not have been happy with the GZ37.

OTOH, When Simon sq225917 came round here with the Young DAC to compare with my CDQ in 2011 (before the OLED/transformer upgrade) the CDQ had less "air" and was therefore "darker" than the Young. It was no less "tuneful" than the Young though and if anything, it was slightly more rhythmic.

I slightly preferred the CDQ.
 
MDAC does not try to interpolate (Guessimate) this missing data - other Dac's might.

I doubt that John. In general, this has to be handled by the transport while you still have access to the 'raw' data off the disc. This is an aspect that modern transport chip sets handle entirely transparently, and well. The designer of a CD transport (intended for audio use) would probably have to go well out of his way to lose its inherent ability to manage C2 errors.
 
if so, is there some parameter in menu to change this behaviour ? I found nothing ..

There's nothing to apply any error correction at the M-DAC - the CD player should be doing it!

The only setting you can change is the jitter tolerance, but I don't think this is the issue you have. Do you have another CD player or DVD/Blu-Ray with a TOSLINK/SPDIF out?

Are you able to may a copy of the CD on your PC. If you use something like EAC (Exact Audio Copy) to rip the audio to WAV's, I think it should be possible to make a good copy, unless the CD is very badly scratched.
 
Niels Larsen of NLE or better known as D.A.T.C. (attenuators) told me many, many years ago when I bought one attenuator: "this is one of the last with the good sounding SMD resistors I have" he told me he was searching all over for some with similar "no sound signature".

My preamp has one of those stepped attenuators. It was fitted in 2008 to replace an ALPS Blue Velvet. The D.A.C.T. had more depth, rather than width to the soundstage yet resolved harmonic info better.

It was a big improvement for me.

I presume you mean these:

http://www.dact.com/html/attenuators.html
 
Hi John, ship mine with the Dale resistors please, I've always used A08/A10 over v.90, so I'll enjoy the 'darker' sound...;)

Will
 
Cowboy Junkies- one soul now-bonus tracks 'neath your covers' is good for me.
Hi misterdog,

Just checked this out on Amazon and sounds very interesting. :) One Soul Now [+Bonus Ep] now winging its way from Canada. Funny that no matter how many bands you know there's always another surprise round the corner. Any other Cowboy Junkies albums you'd recommend?

Thanks
 
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