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MDAC First Listen (part 00111010)

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gints said:
It was about Detox, not dac.
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Any of John Westlake's sucessfull designs would have commercial value. I dont think his original crowd funding approach negates current or future commercial development...he retains full rights to his intellectual property, i am sure. So it is very strange he views this enterprise as a single, defined and limited effort.
 
I'm not sure any sale of the Detox design has been ruled out, just that John doesn't have the risk capital to invest in large scale production himself, and that the cost of the 'proper' case might make the ultimate retail price prohibitive.

Similarly, if you were 'productionising' MDAC2 I doubt you'd start with the original casework - I'd guess something more like MDAC+ and even then there'd be compromises which would detract from the original concept. The highest possible standards demand a hand-finished approach - but the likes of Schiit and Benchmark design in-house. So maybe not so strange after all.
 
The problem with all of this is that we have been here before. Individual statements of intent (or non-intent) may seem plausible on their face and taken in isolation, but despite all the words nothing actually happens. You could write a 3 volume history of the obfuscation in this project. Two stand out points however
  • since the overall design of the project keep changing, no real weight can be placed on the supposed time to completion of the design. There have been at least proposed 3 d/a conversion schemes (ess 9018 with improved modulator/filters; ess 9038; discrete dac whatever the hell that means) and several board/ case/size schemes: single board mdac replacement, fdac, back to single board replacement; multiple board in the original case etc etc). Every previous scheme has been (supposedly) nearer to completion than the current one is; mañana mañana
  • the detox was supposed to be a relatively self-contained project to provide some development funding for John and some jam today for investors. Only the first actually happened. It was supposedly ready 2.5 years ago. Then apparently the case was the problem. It sat doing nothing for a while then was grudgingly resurrected with John under pressure to produce something. Now what? It costs what it costs. Make it or don't. Sell another 120 detoxes or give everyone two cases. Maybe some people will buy two if there is a real product not just a pile of excuses.

Without even going back before this (i think the 72nd) generation of this thread we get
BigDog said:
Hope that I am not stepping on John's toes but for those not doing Facebook, this is John's post on the chassis...

"I've got pricing for the Detox chassis - I'm just asking for packaging and Light guides to be included in the pricing - I've also requested a "reference sample" for approval - its been such a long time I just want to insure our files are correct etc.

The complete Chassis cost with Main chassis, Base, Knob, Chassis Screws, Knob Grub screw, Light Guides & packaging will work about GBP120 (Plus shipping costs to Europe). This includes a margin for rejects."

I too am OK with that and hope that reject rate is (much) lower than estimated.
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No disrespect to Big Dog, who was just passing on what was said on facebook- but that was on 18th June. So what now? why bother with this the whole pantomime- either John is going to order the chassis and get on with it or not.
 
Maybe it needs more than just me asking questions on the facebook page. When only 1 person is questioning what you're doing you tend not to take any notice. If 50 people are asking questions it usually makes you sit up and take notice.
 
adamdea said:
The problem with all of this is that we have been here before. Individual statements of intent (or non-intent) may seem plausible on their face and taken in isolation, but despite all the words nothing actually happens. You could write a 3 volume history of the obfuscation in this project. Two stand out points however
  • since the overall design of the project keep changing, no real weight can be placed on the supposed time to completion of the design. There have been at least proposed 3 d/a conversion schemes (ess 9018 with improved modulator/filters; ess 9038; discrete dac whatever the hell that means) and several board/ case/size schemes: single board mdac replacement, fdac, back to single board replacement; multiple board in the original case etc etc). Every previous scheme has been (supposedly) nearer to completion than the current one is; mañana mañana
  • the detox was supposed to be a relatively self-contained project to provide some development funding for John and some jam today for investors. Only the first actually happened. It was supposedly ready 2.5 years ago. Then apparently the case was the problem. It sat doing nothing for a while then was grudgingly resurrected with John under pressure to produce something. Now what? It costs what it costs. Make it or don't. Sell another 120 detoxes or give everyone two cases. Maybe some people will buy two if there is a real product not just a pile of excuses.

Without even going back before this (i think the 72nd) generation of this thread we get

No disrespect to Big Dog, who was just passing on what was said on facebook- but that was on 18th June. So what now? why bother with this the whole pantomime- either John is going to order the chassis and get on with it or not.
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The other thing to bear in mind is that the M-Dac 2 was just a stepping stone to the F-Dac. When the M-Dac 2 appears (yes, I still think it will happen at some stage) I can't see anyone waiting another few years for the F-Dac. The problem is that, as you say, we've been here before several times before. My reading of what John posted on Facebook is that there's a lot of development work to be done on the latest iteration of the design. What concerns me is that there's going to be a possibility of the board being unable to fit into the M-Dac chassis and we're back to square one with a new case required.

At least I didn't commit to the very expensive V-FET amplifiers - or the slave units that haven't been mentioned for a few years.
 
Latest reply from John to me on facebook book is he is hoping to have protoypes in 3 months. Prototypes of what he doesn't say.

Stuart Littlejohn John, We are 5 years in to this project and I don't think it's unreasonable at this stage that you put a stake in the ground and make a reasonably educated and honest stab as to when you are likely to have this completed. If you think it's another 2 years then you have a moral duty to tell me, and all your other backers, if this is the case. You cannot continue to have this 'it'll be ready when it's ready' response. If at the out set of this project you had given any indication this could take 5+ years to complete, how many people do you think would have signed up to support you? I'll hazard a guess it would be somewhere close to zero.
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Lakewest Audio I'm hoping to have the first prototypes within the next 3 months... we are that close now.
 
It's 3 months to first prototype, so nothing to go under anyone's tree. Even if this actually happened then in the light of the history of the project it is absolutely meaningless. How long ago was a prototype detox board produced? Where is the detox?
Does anyone else remember definitely ready for Munich 1?
 
I think it's safe to say that 3 Christmases ago we were closer than we will be in 3 Christmases to come, even when it comes to producing and delivering a 2 port USB hub.
 
misterdog said:
Christmas then. I'll leave a space under the tree - again.
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Its turning into a bit of a joke imo.
Wont be fronting another penny for development costs until something is ready to deliver. Already in for quite a lot of cash which could have been spent on a new DAC years ago, instead it was spent on a promise and hope.
 
I had to smile when I came across the pcbs in the diyAudio store for a VFET Amplifier designed by Nelson Pass. The attached note says: 'DO NOT ORDER THESE UNLESS YOU ALREADY HAVE GENUINE SONY VFETS.' Ironic, if you choose to see it that way.....
 
sam_cat said:
Its turning into a bit of a joke imo.
Wont be fronting another penny for development costs until something is ready to deliver. Already in for quite a lot of cash which could have been spent on a new DAC years ago, instead it was spent on a promise and hope.
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Whilst I do generally agree and sympathise with the sentiments expressed here I'm pretty much fed up of people moaning or trying get their money back etc.. There was always an implicit degree of risk here with no cast iron guarantee of an end product. I don't think anyone here genuinely believes Jon has done anything fraudulent and all the whingeing and nay-saying isn't going to make one iota of difference to what Jon does in the future. Therefore I'd respectfully suggest that everyone shuts the f&*k up with their negativity and instead either remain quiet or offer some degree of encouragement.

If I were in Jon's position I'd feel a huge burden (and I'm sure he does) until I could deliver some or all of this project. I'm absolutely certain Jon puts more that enough pressure on himself and if he does read the comments here it's not exactly going to help his state of mind.

I'm not in any way trying to defend unrealistic promises, scope creep etc. but, as the saying goes, 'we are where we are'. Just leave Jon to get on with it, forget about your investments and adopt the position that whatever happens in future can only be a bonus.

BTW, not picking on you at all, Sam.
 
Paul, with all due respect, I don't think it's up to you to tell people what to do and telling people to STFU isn't helpful. If that's the best you can offer I'd suggest you leave this thread well alone.
If people want to have a pop at John about what has happened to their £3k+ they've invested then as far as I'm concerned they are perfectly entitled to do so - certainly not your place to tell them what to do.
 
killie99 said:
Paul, with all due respect, I don't think it's up to you to tell people what to do and telling people to STFU isn't helpful. If that's the best you can offer I'd suggest you leave this thread well alone.
If people want to have a pop at John about what has happened to their £3k+ they've invested then as far as I'm concerned they are perfectly entitled to do so - certainly not your place to tell them what to do.
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It was only a respectful suggestion not an instruction. Can you not see that, based on years of history, constant slating and sniping will not make things better? Most likely it will only make things worse.

£3k+ presumably refers to those (twenty?) who've paid £2.3k towards the VFET? A small minority (full disclosure, I was one but sold my position years back) who I think might be entitled to be more vociferous, not just because of the large sum involved but the complete lack of foreseeable development on this.
 
paulski said:
Whilst I do generally agree and sympathise with the sentiments expressed here I'm pretty much fed up of people moaning or trying get their money back etc..
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While yes, I'm moaning, I've stated my position many times - which is I do not expect to get my money back, entering into the development was always a risk and nothing has changed in this regard. What does concern me though is that five years down the track the design is still in development. and will be into next year. I am worried that as the design nears completion John will think of a better solution - or there are insurmountable problems with the design - and we're back to square one.

All just my personal opinion, I'm happy with other holding different views.
 
paulski said:
I Can you not see that, based on years of history, constant slating and sniping will not make things better? Most likely it will only make things worse.

.
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I think that it is those very "years of history" that people are so very peeved about.
 
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