MDAC First Listen (part 00111000)

[stephengrenfell]

It might be good enougth for you, but it will never be as good as a dedicated server with much more processing power. To those with smaller collections it will probably be OK .

I don’t know if it will be responsive enough for me or not. With a large library held “remotely” on a NAS - to be honest I am skeptical. Maybe if the library was on SSD's directly connected to the RPi – but then the RPi would be kept quite busy with all those files….

You will need to run HQ player on your PC / MAC so why not just use Roon to upsample?

Sure a PC/Mac is needed to upsample. Otherwise I guess the question is which will give better SQ results Roon or HQP ?. Both of my current DACs can only accept PCM, so the first chance I will get to play will be with the Devdac.

Roon and saving money does not really fit in the same sentence.

If you want the best it is going to cost you .

You really need to use either a tablet or a laptop to get the best experience with Roon. The phone app is also good if you have a newer phone.

Using the iPad with Roon is a nice to have but not a showstopper for me as the iMac is in the same room as the hifi. And I would rather spend the dosh on getting better SQ than a shiny new iPad or Laptop.

An app on a phone doesn’t interest me - screen is far too Small. Maybe for younger folks who don’t need to keep putting “reading glasses” on each time….

 

[adamdea]

I don’t know if it will be responsive enough for me or not. With a large library held “remotely” on a NAS - to be honest I am skeptical. Maybe if the library was on SSD's directly connected to the RPi – but then the RPi would be kept quite busy with all those files….

Why would this matter? Audio data is pretty trivial for a gigabyte network. My rpi works perfectly well enough as a server using wifi; connected hard wired it's even better.
I wouldn't worry about processing power unless you are doing heavy dsp - perhaps room correction, although I suspect a pi3 could probably do that too. That said HQ player may need a bit of processing welly.
I wouldn't regard 2000 cds as a particularly large library (25000 tracks?)

 

[Bob L]

An app on a phone doesn’t interest me - screen is far too Small. Maybe for younger folks who don’t need to keep putting “reading glasses” on each time….

Amen to that! It's as much as I can do to manage my remote Mini on a mini iPad!

 

[JohnW]

John

just bought a HD650 Headphone.
Will the MDAC2 connector the same 4W XLR as you have planned for the FDAC?
I would like to buy a balanced cable...

edit:
and if it is possible could you please describe which signal will be on which pin?
thank you.

greetings
F.S.

Fred,

4W XLR headphone wiring used on MDAC2 / FDAC:-

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qlu11bc9mpzx2ro/Male4PinXLR.JPG?dl=0

 

[JohnW]

I don’t know if it will be responsive enough for me or not. With a large library held “remotely” on a NAS - to be honest I am skeptical. Maybe if the library was on SSD's directly connected to the RPi – but then the RPi would be kept quite busy with all those files….

When the NAS drive is first connected to the Streamer the software generates its own internal database and downloads album artwork etc.

During a recent demo we plugged in a clients NAS drive with almost 400GB of files, the streamer was slow and unresponsive for about half an hour while it built its internal database etc. afterwards its seem indifferent to the number of files catalogued.

Sure a PC/Mac is needed to upsample. Otherwise I guess the question is which will give better SQ results Roon or HQP ?. Both of my current DACs can only accept PCM, so the first chance I will get to play will be with the Devdac.

I STRONGLY advice against any form of upsampling or messing with the native Data - HiFI means closest to the original, any form of extra processing can only move us further away from this goal.

Using the iPad with Roon is a nice to have but not a showstopper for me as the iMac is in the same room as the hifi. And I would rather spend the dosh on getting better SQ than a shiny new iPad or Laptop.

An app on a phone doesn’t interest me - screen is far too Small. Maybe for younger folks who don’t need to keep putting “reading glasses” on each time….

If you dont want to control the streamer via a Phone / tablet then I recommend using an external HDMI Screen (Plasma / LCD TV if you have one in your listening room) and a wireless keyboard...

Recommended wireless Keyboard:-

http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...0001&campid=5338728743&icep_item=252980545278

 

[JohnW]

Hi John,

I’ve decided I’ll definitely go, in the interim, via the MDAC2 route before the FDAC. As I’d also want the touch panel, the Dacapo Anniversary Discrete DAC version and future-proofing I’ve just signed up for the MDAC2 Streamer.

Currently I use a SBT, and this will be used with the Detox when available, but I like the idea of streaming from LMS directly to the MDAC2 in the future.

Best wishes,

Roger.

Roger,

Thank you - grateful to receive extra streamer orders as I'm investing heavily in production equipment. I've just had to purchase a second lab Microscope for the Jarek as the components are now so tiny (especially on the streamer PCB) that its not really possible to see the solder joints with the naked eye.

On the latest A03 Streamer PCB release we are gong to try added onboard eMMC Memory (as an extra cost option) - these memory chips are in a leadless package called "Ball Grid Arrays" (BGA's):-

http://www.everestbilisim.com/public/images/programResimleri/b3.jpg

BGA's are soldered to the PCB with "Balls" of solder under the IC package itself - you cannot directly see (or solder) the connections

To allow as to handle such devices, I've had to invest in specialised equipment.

So while the eMMC memory is reactively cheap (GBP30 - GBP40 for 64GB), I have to cover the cost of the equipment required to work with the BGA packages... production equipment costs just never seem to end.

 

[JohnW]

Or maybe you could attach some wires for me?

Yes, for sure.

How much space is required for both PCBs?

The Streamer PCB area, ignoring the "L" shaped cutout is:-

95mm Wide x 155mm Deep

The DevDAC (That mounts to the righthand side of the Streamer board (Note the 36W IDC Ribbon headers on both boards):-

120mm Wide x 150mm Deep

https://www.dropbox.com/s/h89hhmpavavdca6/streamerDevDac.jpg?dl=0

The second smaller 26W header on the lower right of the DevDAC PCB connects to the optional ADC Development board.

 

[JohnW]

John - Nice to see JD credited on the DevDac PCB (my congrats to Jarek)....very neat as usual.

Indeed we are brothers in arms, both suffering with these designs!

I drawup the schematics and Jarek layouts the PCB's with alittle starting guidance from myself - and when he "backs himself" into a corner...

Jareks getting better with every design I'm not sure if I'm happy about that!

Some designs are more trouble then others - but we where both excited about the DevDAC so Jarek stream rolled the PCB design yes he's getting good!

Next hardware task for Jarek will be the ADC DEV board - but poor Jarek has a whole host of software to complete + I need to draw up the ADC schematic which will be based on the earlier FDAC design work I'd done in the past... it was some time ago now that I need to bring myself back upto speed on the ADC again - but its intended to get the MDAC2 ADC design nailed so its necessary anyway...

 

[ljmac]

Hi John,

I got the Detox email from Renata and responded, but after catching up with this thread I can see I misunderstood. I thought she was asking me about the power supply standard, but it seems that's universal, and you're only asking about the plug type, correct? If so I will need a US-style plug (not UK as per the Australian power supply standard).

 

[fred sonnen]

Fred,

4W XLR headphone wiring used on MDAC2 / FDAC:-

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qlu11bc9mpzx2ro/Male4PinXLR.JPG?dl=0

Thank you

If the final Mdac2 featureset is available I will place my order.
Promised

Greetings
F.s.

 

[stephengrenfell]

When the NAS drive is first connected to the Streamer the software generates its own internal database and downloads album artwork etc.

During a recent demo we plugged in a clients NAS drive with almost 400GB of files, the streamer was slow and unresponsive for about half an hour while it built its internal database etc. afterwards its seem indifferent to the number of files catalogued.

What player software configuration were you using, and was the Ui directly on the RPi or remotely on a tablet ?. Just Curious.

My past experiences with players running on embedded linux processors (ie NAS boxes) were always disappointing wrt browsing responsiveness. Hence my slight negativity. I will keep an open mind though and can’t wait to see the streamer in action.

I STRONGLY advice against any form of upsampling or messing with the native Data - HiFI means closest to the original, any form of extra processing can only move us further away from this goal.

Tinkering with upsampling to DSD is something I have wanted to try for ages but can’t, this just a pet project for me, and of course it may or may not yield any benefit in SQ.

If you dont want to control the streamer via a Phone / tablet then I recommend using an external HDMI Screen (Plasma / LCD TV if you have one in your listening room) and a wireless keyboard...

I use Roon and plan to continue doing so. AKAIK (unless I have missed something) the only way to use Roon with an RPi is with Roon Bridge + Roon Server on a PC/mac/linux (Roon Server needs an x86_64 platform). So it’s likely the UI for me will probably not change from what I do now – using Roon Control on the mac or PC, and possibly eventually maybe a newer iPad.

On the latest A03 Streamer PCB release we are gong to try added onboard eMMC Memory (as an extra cost option) - these memory chips are in a leadless package called "Ball Grid Arrays" (BGA's):-

BGA's are soldered to the PCB with "Balls" of solder under the IC package itself - you cannot directly see (or solder) the connections

To allow as to handle such devices, I've had to invest in specialised equipment.

So while the eMMC memory is reactively cheap (GBP30 - GBP40 for 64GB), I have to cover the cost of the equipment required to work with the BGA packages... production equipment costs just never seem to end.

Soldering BGAs…. that sounds like fun..

Seriously though it is good to know there will be a decent amount of onboard flash Memory available.

Thanks for the updates John, it is good to see your's and Jarek's hard work progressing.

 

[Rune]

I use Roon and plan to continue doing so. AKAIK (unless I have missed something) the only way to use Roon with an RPi is with Roon Bridge + Roon Server on a PC/mac/linux (Roon Server needs an x86_64 platform). So it’s likely the UI for me will probably not change from what I do now – using Roon Control on the mac or PC, and possibly eventually maybe a newer iPad.

Correct if you are using Roon you still need to run the Roon server on a PC/MAC. So the UI will be exactly the same as it is now.

But we will have RoonBridge installed on the streamer which is a good thing.

There is also some future goodies that can be added to the DACs UI with the Roon API like showing cover art and progress and play, pause on the DACs display or through the HDMI port just like a SBT.

My past experiences with players running on embedded linux processors (ie NAS boxes) were always disappointing wrt browsing responsiveness. Hence my slight negativity. I will keep an open mind though and can’t wait to see the streamer in action.

I have the same past experience.

But I have tried running both Volumio and LMS on a RPI and to be fair the performance is pretty good and many will be satisfied with it.

But when you have first used the Roon UI with RoonCore installed on a fast PC there is simply no going back.
But not every one is prepared to pay the premium for Roon. And some want a folder view of there music.

So it is good that there is both options so every one will be happy.

 

[misterdog]

so every one will be happy.

Unlikely, the human condition is programmed to be otherwise.

 

[alloja]

I STRONGLY advice against any form of upsampling or messing with the native Data

...which, John, leads me to ask the question again: will an ASRC be needed to bring S/PDIF to the FDAC?

If this is the case, I might go for the ESS-based MDAC2 instead of the FDAC, as I'd like to be able to use S/PDIF for DAT and satellite radio.

 

[TwoSeventy]

I am currently using my MDAC over USB via an Olimex isolator with a RPi 3 as the streamer. The Pi is powered by an iFi power supply and I have just updated my MoOde Audio to version 3.8. This version incorporates an Advanced Real Time Linux Kernel. I am quite surprised as to how much of a sound quality improvement this Kernel brings, improved transient detail and smoother sound. Reverb tails are more obvious, cymbals are more authentic. The best sound out of the MDAC I've ever had.

 

[Jason_PFM]

I am currently using my MDAC over USB via an Olimex isolator with a RPi 3 as the streamer. The Pi is powered by an iFi power supply and I have just updated my MoOde Audio to version 3.8. This version incorporates an Advanced Real Time Linux Kernel. I am quite surprised as to how much of a sound quality improvement this Kernel brings, improved transient detail and smoother sound. Reverb tails are more obvious, cymbals are more authentic. The best sound out of the MDAC I've ever had.

That would imply that secondary effects (in your case only different CPU modulation) walk straight through, so barriers like async USB and galvanic isolation didn't exist at all, defeating their entire purpose
I would be worried

 

[stephengrenfell]

Correct if you are using Roon you still need to run the Roon server on a PC/MAC. So the UI will be exactly the same as it is now.

But we will have RoonBridge installed on the streamer which is a good thing.

There is also some future goodies that can be added to the DACs UI with the Roon API like showing cover art and progress and play, pause on the DACs display or through the HDMI port just like a SBT.

Basic player control (like a CD player) via the Roon API would be great.

I have the same past experience.

But I have tried running both Volumio and LMS on a RPI and to be fair the performance is pretty good and many will be satisfied with it.

But when you have first used the Roon UI with RoonCore installed on a fast PC there is simply no going back.
But not every one is prepared to pay the premium for Roon. And some want a folder view of there music.

So it is good that there is both options so every one will be happy.

Roon Bridge on the streamer is a big+ for me.

Basic player control (like a CD player) via the Roon API would be great for Roon users.

Yes offering a choice of player software is the way to go for the streamer.

 

[stephengrenfell]

That would imply that secondary effects (in your case only different CPU modulation) walk straight through, so barriers like async USB and galvanic isolation didn't exist at all, defeating their entire purpose
I would be worried

There are known issues wrt to the SQ effects from USB Audio, hence the need for devices like the Detox / Regen etc..

 

[Asphaltradler]

I don't know about Roon and so on and now am not sure what the best method will be with MDac2 whenever it comes.

Currently my setup is very simple: a fanless low-energy notebook (Pentium N3540 with SSD) running Foobar2000 as player via USB to MDac AND as Upnp server, with around 1,5TB of FLAC music (ca 1200 CDs plus 600 hires downloads or so) on a 2TB USB HDD.

Control is directly on the notebook in Foobar or remotely by an Android phone running foobar2000 Controller App, which offers good response, fast browing and even text-based searching in the database. Much better as when I tried network server solutions. Other UpnP apps (e.g. BubbleUpnp) work too, but as I hear mostly classical/modern composed music and prefer my own tagging system (artist, composer, my own defined genres like 'Kammermusik', 'Symphonie', 'Lied', 'Violin solo' and so on), other apps are not prepared for such, whereas foobar is very easy to configurate. No streaming (?) except sometimes listening to internet radio.

With MDac2 I assume that could stay as it is, but if I would go for the streamer option, would it be possible to directly connect the USB HDD (2,5 inch, low power consumption powered by USB) and the streamer would act as server for the phone app? So that I wouldn't need the notebook? Or would I still need the notebook+HDD as "network server"?

What would be best here? I always like to have as few boxes as possible.

 

[Rune]

I don't know about Roon and so on and now am not sure what the best method will be with MDac2 whenever it comes.

Currently my setup is very simple: a fanless low-energy notebook (Pentium N3540 with SSD) running Foobar2000 as player via USB to MDac AND as Upnp server, with around 1,5TB of FLAC music (ca 1200 CDs plus 600 hires downloads or so) on a 2TB USB HDD.

Control is directly on the notebook in Foobar or remotely by an Android phone running foobar2000 Controller App, which offers good response, fast browing and even text-based searching in the database. Much better as when I tried network server solutions. Other UpnP apps (e.g. BubbleUpnp) work too, but as I hear mostly classical/modern composed music and prefer my own tagging system (artist, composer, my own defined genres like 'Kammermusik', 'Symphonie', 'Lied', 'Violin solo' and so on), other apps are not prepared for such, whereas foobar is very easy to configurate. No streaming (?) except sometimes listening to internet radio.

With MDac2 I assume that could stay as it is, but if I would go for the streamer option, would it be possible to directly connect the USB HDD (2,5 inch, low power consumption powered by USB) and the streamer would act as server for the phone app? So that I wouldn't need the notebook? Or would I still need the notebook+HDD as "network server"?

What would be best here? I always like to have as few boxes as possible.

You can attach your 2.5 USB HD and use the inbuild Volumio server/player.
It will probably be closer to what you are used to than Roon.
Plan B (worst case scenario) if you do not like how Volumio present your tags you can do what you do now.