MDAC First Listen (part 00110110)

[iansr]

Or in other words, give me £100, which is the current amount being asked for, or I will simply add the equivalent amount to the cost in another way.

Same effect, I am demanding £100 from you if you ever want to see whatever project(s) you have signed up for. Sorry that is simple extortion.

Some people seem to be getting themselves rather confused. It has always been perfectly obvious that by "at cost" John meant the actual cost of production without any profit being added by him. That price is STILL what he is effectively offering now if you don't opt for the streamer prepayment. All that has changed is that there is now the possibility of a cheaper option - certainly if you want a streamer anyway and maybe still cheaper even if you didn't. John did you see my earlier post on that last point?

 

[gints]

Most simple way would be voluntary to chip in some amount towards 'at cost' portion whoever can afford and then get some discount (lets say 10%) from that amount when actual production will take place. Regardless of the product for what that person was signed.

 

[Rune]

Why should anybody be effectively forced to pay for John's tooling costs for equipment that will remain with him for use on other projects by either seeking an up front payment or add it to cost of the existing projects.

This P & P equipment is not specifically and only require/necessary for the Detox/MDAC2 projects and once/if completed be redundant and serve no other function or use.

Yes John can use the equipment for other projects. But why should I/we care about that when we get a DAC way below market value.

Do you not want the man to be able to make a living after this project?

Even if you add up all the development paid and divide it with the time already used it does not add up to a fat yearly salary.

And if you have followed this project all the years you will have seen that it has been used on equipment and development cost so nothing left for a salary.

So one simple question do you work for free. I guess I know the answer. So why do you expect John do work for free?

I neither want or require a streamer and yes I do object to being expected to pay for one just so that others can benefit. Same old story, we are being made out as being the unreasonable ones because some can only see what they want and simple expect others to go along with.

I do simply not buy the victim card you just pulled!

There is always a choice. You have not been forced to pay for a streamer, it is still an option which you don't have to chose.

But I guess your favourite option is to not have the streamer but still get the discount.

 

[sprint]

Nope, that is not what he said. That is quite a sad twist in my opinion.
He said... "if I don't invest in this machine, it will cost you X (let;s say £100), whereas if I buy the P&P machine it will cost £100 less but we have to cover the cost of the P&P machine, so the final price is the same".

It just opens a good future for other developments that could probably be delivered rapidly. At least that is what I understood from reading the thread. I usually react badly to "extra costs", but this time I just don't see any problem with it.

There has been absolutely no evidence to that effect been presented/provided.

When it has been clearly shown/demonstrated that there is or will be a cost neutral overall outcome to the current Detox and MDAC2 projects then that argument/position may have some merit.

 

[sprint]

Yes John can use the equipment for other projects. But why should I/we care about that when we get a DAC way below market value.

Do you not want the man to be able to make a living after this project?

Even if you add up all the development paid and divide it with the time already used it does not add up to a fat yearly salary.

And if you have followed this project all the years you will have seen that it has been used on equipment and development cost so nothing left for a salary.

So one simple question do you work for free. I guess I know the answer. So why do you expect John do work for free?



I do simply not buy the victim card you just pulled!

There is always a choice. You have not been forced to pay for a streamer, it is still an option which you don't have to chose.

But I guess your favourite option is to not have the streamer but still get the discount.

The same old response from the same old people who just want, want, want and are happy to just keep paying whatever is demanded and expect everybody else to just go alone so that they can have what they want.

 

[tunkejazz]

There has been absolutely no evidence to that effect been presented/provided.

When it has been clearly shown/demonstrated that there is or will be a cost neutral overall outcome to the current Detox and MDAC2 projects then that argument/position may have some merit.

The same applies to your argument in that case.

 

[iansr]

The same old response from the same old people who just want, want, want and are happy to just keep paying whatever is demanded and expect everybody else to just go alone so that they can have what they want.

Have you read my post? If the answer is yes then read it again.

 

[Richard Kimber]

I don't stream because 320 KB/s is not high fidelity.

I've been streaming 24/192 for ages. Presumably you can stream DSD too, though I've not tried because I don't have the streaming hardware for it, so I use a player on the PC via USB for that.

 

[Rune]

The same old response from the same old people who just want, want, want and are happy to just keep paying whatever is demanded and expect everybody else to just go alone so that they can have what they want.

Accusing someone on a audiophile forum for being old is a self goal given the age demography

 

[timola]

Have you read my post? If the answer is yes then read it again.

I did .... and yeah it makes sense.

Generally, lighten up guys, John is on our side.... always, in my experience. Let's support and trust him.

A couple of hundred pounds for a Streamer isn't much, won't break the bank account (if it can, then HiFi may not be for you)....people spend that on a 1M kettle lead ... lol.

Look at the $655US ISO Regen .... the Detox in comparison is waaay cheaper and built like a battleship and set-up by hand using some seriously expensive test kit.

Have faith ...... (I never thought I'd ever say/write/advise that being a neo-atheist ... religion is so useful sometimes .... so people can get things done without prolonged arguments....sigh).

 

[BigDog]

BigDog,

US$655 with an LPS .... OUCH!

https://uptoneaudio.com/products/iso-regen?variant=37469467788

John, the Detox is too cheap !

I think you did not fully read. I believe the standalone REGEN is ~$325 depending on whether one wants the wallwart PS...the other $300 or so is for their ULTRACAP (MSRP $380) capacitor based LPS discounted as part of package deal.

The way things are stacking up, I believe a DETOX is going to cost me $300+ here in the States after all is said and done.

FWIW, I sent the REGEN back to Uptone because it actually detracted from the SQ of my system. To be fair, it was supplied with a SMPS which may have had more to do with this failure than the REGEN.

 

[timola]

I think you did not fully read. I believe the standalone REGEN is ~$325 depending on whether one wants the wallwart PS...the other $300 or so is for their ULTRACAP (MSRP $380) capacitor based LPS discounted as part of package deal.

The way things are stacking up, I believe a DETOX is going to cost me $300+ here in the States after all is said and done.

FWIW, I sent the REGEN back to Uptone because it actually detracted from the SQ of my system. To be fair, it was supplied with a SMPS which may have had more to do with this failure than the REGEN.

You make a good point....John's top spec (non wall-wart) standalone LPS (5 rails) for use with MDAC and Detox is projected at around £200 ($250ish)....still cheap in comparison don't you think? (who knows what will be under the hood of either of these PSUs so just talking nonsense really....trying to be positive...lol ).

 

[clivem2]

I think you did not fully read. I believe the standalone REGEN is ~$325 depending on whether one wants the wallwart PS...the other $300 or so is for their ULTRACAP (MSRP $380) capacitor based LPS discounted as part of package deal.

The way things are stacking up, I believe a DETOX is going to cost me $300+ here in the States after all is said and done.

FWIW, I sent the REGEN back to Uptone because it actually detracted from the SQ of my system. To be fair, it was supplied with a SMPS which may have had more to do with this failure than the REGEN.

There's a new Regen which includes galvanic isolation; hence the higher price.

 

[Steven Toy]

I arrive on Wednesday 17th and leave very early Saturday morning.

I will therefore be at the show on Thursday and Friday.

Weather permitting the Augustiner Keller is a nice place to spend an evening.

 

[JohnW]

So does this mean the "at industry rates" assembly cost per MDAC2 PCB going to be about the same as the P&P contribution per streamer PCB.

The current pricing I have "at industry rates" based in margins for other projects are over twice the cost of the Streamer sponsorship.

When you say "offer something now" AFAIK you still need the rest of the funding for the P&P machine (or have I got that wrong ?).

I meant offer a design that I can see being ready BEFORE the MDAC2 itself as we are not relent on mechanical items and components sourced from China - the Streamer PCB can be built without such complexities. It was ALWAYS the intention to hand build a few streamer PCB's so we could get a few units out to those who would start software development ahead of MDAC2 being shipped.

If you achieve funding the rest of the P&P machine by selling some designs (as I understand it) is there a risk of changing priorities (your time to support your customer etc..) affecting MDAC2 delivery in 2017 ?. Sorry just a question as to understand what the impact might be.

Ideally I could offer the Detox design, a vairent of MDAC2 or the Streamer PCB so I could run any new "projects" in parallel, but the current "solution" I have on the table is a couple of new designs although they would pay more... but I'm reluctant to go down this route as I simply dont have the time - I would get Jarek to do most of the PCB design once I'd completed the schematics, but its would still take much time away from my core projects (MDAC2 etc). This is why I'd prefer / considering other options.

So the streamer PCB assembly has priority over the MDAC2 assembly - would it not be better to finish the MDAC2 and add the streamer later.

Well, the streamer is being completed in parallel with the MDAC2 mainboard - being a digital design I need only draw up the schematics and help Jarek with the PCB component layout, system concepts and interfaces then he can design the board with just alittle help and suggestions from me. "We" will have the PCB completed by Tuesday / Wednesday!

Given the streamer software will run an an RPI-3 and the software interface to the streamer PCB is just USB audio, "software development" can be done (at least most of it) on an RPI3.

Basically yes - BUT there are some small but significant differences with the hardware as we require some "dual purpose" I/O pins that on the RPi board are used for other secondary functions (like the Ethernet Reset pin on RPi is shared with a pin we need for a secondary I2C port) - a few small details like this that will require modifications to the system drivers. Also the RPi does not have an onboard RTC...

Our clocking structure is very different to the RPi board as on our streamer ALL clocks (CPU, USB, Ethernet, HDMI, PSU etc) are synchronised to the audio master clock and as far as I'm aware this is the ONLY Streamer design where such care has been taken with the Clock structure to prevent uncontrolled clock "beating".

 

[adamdea]

I did .... and yeah it makes sense.

Generally, lighten up guys, John is on our side.... always, in my experience. Let's support and trust him.

...

Have faith ...... (I never thought I'd ever say/write/advise that being a neo-atheist ... religion is so useful sometimes .... so people can get things done without prolonged arguments....sigh).

Yes, after all it's not as though we've been let down in any way so far.

 

[stephengrenfell]

The current pricing I have "at industry rates" based in margins for other projects are over twice the cost of the Streamer sponsorship.

Can you say what the figure might be for MDAC2 PCB assembly ?.

I meant offer a design that I can see being ready BEFORE the MDAC2 itself as we are not relent on mechanical items and components sourced from China - the Streamer PCB can be built without such complexities. It was ALWAYS the intention to hand build a few streamer PCB's so we could get a few units out to those who would start software development ahead of MDAC2 being shipped.

OK thanks.

Ideally I could offer the Detox design, a vairent of MDAC2 or the Streamer PCB so I could run any new "projects" in parallel, but the current "solution" I have on the table is a couple of new designs although they would pay more... but I'm reluctant to go down this route as I simply dont have the time - I would get Jarek to do most of the PCB design once I'd completed the schematics, but its would still take much time away from my core projects (MDAC2 etc). This is why I'd prefer / considering other options.

IMHO this does sound like possible major distractions for you (read MDAC2 further delayed, and likely not in 2017).

Keeping the P&P funding in-house (from pfm projects) would avoid the risk of pushing MDAC2 out (right ?).

Avoiding selling your IP for the P&P machine funding would still give you the option to sell your IP later if / when you wanted / needed.

What other options are there for funding the rest of the P&P machine in house (pfm projects) if you are not willing to simply ask everyone to make a contribution to avoid further delays etc... ?.

Can you not offer some kind of assurance on timescales for MDAC2 delivery if all the funds for the P&P machine were provided in house from the MDAC project.

The shortfall for funding the P&P machine equates to what cost per MDAC2 ?.

Well, the streamer is being completed in parallel with the MDAC2 mainboard - being a digital design I need only draw up the schematics and help Jarek with the PCB component layout, system concepts and interfaces then he can design the board with just alittle help and suggestions from me. "We" will have the PCB completed by Tuesday / Wednesday!

Ok. And I guess that as the steamer PCB is much less complex than the MDAC PCB it might be a useful learning curve for using the P&P machine.

Basically yes - BUT there are some small but significant differences with the hardware as we require some "dual propose" I/O pins that on the RPi board are used for other secondary functions (like the Ethernet Reset pin on RPi is shared with a pin we need for an I2C port we need) - a few small details like this that will need modifications to the system drivers. Also the RPi does not have an onboard RTC...

Our clocking structure is very different to the RPi board as on our streamer ALL clocks (CPU, USB, Ethernet, HDMI, PSU etc) are synchronised to the audio master clock and as far as I'm aware this is the ONLY Streamer design where such care has been taken with the Clock structure to prevent uncontrolled clock "beating".

So by "software development" this is getting the drivers working for the customised clocking source and customised re-use of I/O pins.



Thanks again John for your hard work and dedication to the pfm projects.

 

[EIffel]

Regarding the streamer, will one (you) need to make some physical alterations to the Compute Module board before it can be plugged into the streamer board, or will it be possible to buy a regular CM3 and plug it in the streamer board?

 

[dimedrol]

JohnW, please help me out here...

My mdac listening volume is about -40db. I found your posts here on PFM saying that this amount of digital attenuation is sub optimal, so you recommended Rothwell in-line attenuators. I ordered those (RCA version) per your advice. Upon further searching I also found other posts where you say Rothwell attenuators are not good because they don't attenuate the Common mode (not sure if it applies to RCA as well or XLR only).

Furthermore you said that in-line attenuators increase source impedance which is not good either.

So at this point I am confused.
Without in-line attenuators I have high digital attenuation which is bad
With in-line attenuators it is not good either.
what do I do then?

update: I was thinking of maybe taking the preamp route, but upon checking out one of the Schiit preamps I found that it's output impedance is 72Ohm, which means in that regard it's no better than the Rothwells. Please advise.

 

[fred sonnen]

For those of you visiting the High-End in Munich and have some spare time I would suggest visiting A.O.S. (0049 89/99807972; Pienzenauerstr.33 in München Bogenhausen). Germany's top class diy loudspeaker producer. They are using scan speak ant ATC speaker's.
Http://www.aos-lautsprecher.de/index.html
Have fun
F.S.