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MDAC First Listen (part 00110110)

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Steven Toy said:
So do I and I am prepared to make further up-front payments but I am not relishing the prospect of paying for fripperies that were not part of the original project and for which I may have no use.

I don't stream because 320 KB/s is not high fidelity.
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Steven you can stream 16bit 44khz lossless CD quality from Tidal and MQA which is even higher fidelity ;)

Sorry for being a sarcastic. You can hit me when we hopefully meet in Munich :D
 
Steven Toy said:
It would also be a breach of contract to move away from at-cost pricing after development fees had already been paid on that basis.
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I'm not sure if I read you correctly - BUT PCB construction costs is "At Cost" thats we would be charged by external vendors - if we build in-house then charging "industry rate" for PCB assembly is only fair to recoup the investment in the production line. For sure our in-house assembly will still be cheaper then "industry standard" even for the non P&P sponsors as we have a cost target to try and meet - the current quotes of over 100% on basic BOM cost is totally crazy - but a lot of this charge is initial set-up costs, test jig tooling and initial management cost which are proportionally very high due to the small number of boards.

Even the cost of a trip to oversea production in China with flights, visa, hotel accommodation and food etc. for 2 to 3 weeks is going to cost between US$4K to US$5K, I'd rather put this "cost" towards investment in the in-house production... I really feel I can do a better job of manufacturing & quality controlling the final product here in Europe then working in an alien environment where every decision comes down to a compromise to get the task completed within my trip timetable.

I can also see in the future we will have a new wild product idea here on PFM and I'll be able to say "hey we can spin that off our in-house production line within 4-6 weeks"... this is where putting that US$5K into in house production pays off for everyone rather then being lost in the mist of time on "this" single trip to China.
 
Rune said:
Steven you can stream 16bit 44khz lossless CD quality from Tidal and MQA which is even higher fidelity ;)

Sorry for being a sarcastic. You can hit me when we hopefully meet in Munich :D
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Or just store your whole music collection on external harddisk - and forget about Steaming or needing to load a CD :)

I sometimes use the RPi just to browse the internet or watch films on YouTube when I need both monitors / Full CPU power for my PC CAD system.

Maybe I'm alittle childish, but its still "weird" to have full computer in a product I (and Jarek) have designed - I can see the MDAC2 / Streamer being used more to streaming music videos / films and the such from YouTube as a work on my computer, then for "serous listening" - just because I don't have the luxury of time! but knowing I have a High Performance audio system on hand is great :)

I'd like to source a nice wireless keyboard with a TrackPad or some such pointing device for the MDAC2 - something "Apple" like...
 
Not to throw salt on collective wounds but as a previous (unsatisfied) owner of the Uptone Regen, I just noticed that they have started offering as ISO REGEN which apparently incorporates a USB galvanic isolation chip. I am guessing this chip would potentially obviate the need for products such as the Adnaco USB/Glass module, double headed USB cables, etc., but would still require an LPS for the downstream 5V requirement for optimum benefit.
 
JohnW said:
Detox has been ready since 2015 according to the date on the PCB - and the streamer PCB will be issued next week.
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John, I wasn't having a pop at you, I was referring to MDAC2 and pointing out that until there is a working product there is no way there will be a commit date with penalties applied if the date is missed. It would be mad to propose that.
I do finally believe we may get a MDAC2 this year, fingers crossed.
 
Rune said:
That is also why I suggested not basing the contribution for P&P on the streamer option. But on an amount per DAC and Detox we have on order.
That would actually mean that I would contribute more than you.
And buy the way I did not want the AV-bypass or balanced headphone out that several here wanted but do you see me complaining about functionality I have no use for?

Most sensible post of the day.
Munich is twelve days. So lets see.
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Why should anybody be effectively forced to pay for John's tooling costs for equipment that will remain with him for use on other projects by either seeking an up front payment or add it to cost of the existing projects.

This P & P equipment is not specifically and only require/necessary for the Detox/MDAC2 projects and once/if completed be redundant and serve no other function or use.

I neither want or require a streamer and yes I do object to being expected to pay for one just so that others can benefit. Same old story, we are being made out as being the unreasonable ones because some can only see what they want and simple expect others to go along with.
 
Hello John,
I have been trying to catch up with the thread after some time :) I am very excited with all good news about progress, things seem to be converging rapidly and it is great work!

But I am a bit confused about my situation, perhaps you and/or others can help me to clarify my situation. I paid all development fees for FDAC/L2 and I paid for a savaged MDAC when the whole project started. And I paid the Detox development fee when the idea came out.

But now with the MDAC2 stuff I am confused. If I stick to the FDAC project, I understand that all I have to do is pay the FDAC construction "at cost" (?) whenever it is ready, I think you mentioned the savaged MDAC would be replaced with the chasis of the FDAC. Will the tube option introduced extra development costs? I love tubes :)

Great, but "if" I wanted to move to the MDAC2 option instead (only "if"), I would still need to pay more development fees (?), and choose the option that best suits my needs (with streamer or not, power supply, etc...). What would happen with the savaged units? Would it be used to host the MDAC2 board?

But finally...from where I stand it seems that the FDAC is actually cheaper at this point for me, because I don't need to pay extra development fees (unless something else comes up). Please, could you tell me if this info is correct? What would be the estimated remaining cost of each of the 2 options given the stuff I already paid? (Let's say I go for the MDAC2 + streamer + power supply).

I am just trying to make up my mind, that is all!
 
sprint said:
Why should anybody be effectively forced to pay for John's tooling costs for equipment that will remain with him for use on other projects by either seeking an up front payment or add it to cost of the existing projects.

This P & P equipment is not specifically and only require/necessary for the Detox/MDAC2 projects and once/if completed be redundant and serve no other function or use.
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From what I read, it would be exactly the same cost for those who do not support it. Industrial rates will be applied, exactly the same as if the board was build by an specialised company.

But by supporting John's activities we may get better quality control and (more importantly) perhaps good affordable developments in the future.

I honestly don't see the problem in any of the two supposed cases.
 
tunkejazz,

If you have paid all development fees for FDAC then you can transfer to MDAC2 at no extra cost - you will only need to pay the "At Cost" and steamer option (if required).

When FDAC is ready, you can purchase at a 50% discount on the development fees...

With MDAC2 the HQ PSU is require as standard - UNLESS you have your own 5 rail PSU (such as Misterdog).
 
tunkejazz said:
From what I read, it would be exactly the same cost for those who do not support it. Industrial rates will be applied, exactly the same as if the board was build by an specialised company.

But by supporting John's activities we may get better quality control and (more importantly) perhaps good affordable developments in the future.

I honestly don't see the problem in any of the two supposed cases.
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Exactly, thank you for the summary!

I should also mention with the electronics manufactured and tested here in Europe - I would just feel so much better to have full control and oversight on each unit built.

Even if I'm in China for production its near impossible to insure I see and test each unit as I'll be fire fighting many issues at the same time and I cannot just "stop" the production line when I'm not around.
 
Hi John,

JohnW said:
Hopefully its not seen that I'm forcing the streamer option on anyone
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OK point taken.

JohnW said:
- but I think it only fair that those who help fund the P&P machine get the benefit of there sponsorship - and the idea is to charge a minimal cost for SMD construction to cover consumables, ware & tear and electricity etc...

For everyone else, assembly cost will be charged at "industry rates" (well less as IMO the prices I've had so far are crazy).
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So does this mean the "at industry rates" assembly cost per MDAC2 PCB going to be about the same as the P&P contribution per streamer PCB.

JohnW said:
I'd rather offer something now thats ready and required for the MDAC2 then increase costs fro everyone...
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When you say "offer something now" AFAIK you still need the rest of the funding for the P&P machine (or have I got that wrong ?).

If you achieve funding the rest of the P&P machine by selling some designs (as I understand it) is there a risk of changing priorities (your time to support your customer etc..) affecting MDAC2 delivery in 2017 ?. Sorry just a question as to understand what the impact might be.
JohnW said:
Having the streamer available ahead of the MDAC2 unit itself gives us a jump start on "crowd development" of the MDAC2 streamer software.
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So the streamer PCB assembly has priority over the MDAC2 assembly - would it not be better to finish the MDAC2 and add the streamer later.

Given the streamer software will run an an RPI-3 and the software interface to the streamer PCB is just USB audio, "software development" can be done (at least most of it) on an RPI3.
 
JohnW said:
tunkejazz,
With MDAC2 the HQ PSU is require as standard - UNLESS you have your own 5 rail PSU (such as Misterdog).
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Thanks for the info John, it clarified things for me.

No own 5 (or 1,2,3,4,...N) rail PSU here I am afraid ;-)
 
tunkejazz said:
From what I read, it would be exactly the same cost for those who do not support it. Industrial rates will be applied, exactly the same as if the board was build by an specialised company.

But by supporting John's activities we may get better quality control and (more importantly) perhaps good affordable developments in the future.

I honestly don't see the problem in any of the two supposed cases.
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Or in other words, give me £100, which is the current amount being asked for, or I will simply add the equivalent amount to the cost in another way.

Same effect, I am demanding £100 from you if you ever want to see whatever project(s) you have signed up for. Sorry that is simple extortion.
 
I am still a little bit confused ...do I need a DETOX if I have a Streamer inside the MDAC2...or was there a suggestion of sending USB out from the Streamer to USB into MDAC2 (even though Streamer and MDAC2 are under the same hood?

Thanks

Ps. I'm fine to drop £100 for the P&P...I always wanted (and thought originally) that John would hand make these things - Build quality over a few £ saved in China is much more important to me, personally
 
sprint said:
Or in other words, give me £100, which is the current amount being asked for, or I will simply add the equivalent amount to the cost in another way.

Same effect, I am demanding £100 from you if you ever want to see whatever project(s) you have signed up for. Sorry that is simple extortion.
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Nope, that is not what he said. That is quite a sad twist in my opinion.
He said... "if I don't invest in this machine, it will cost you X (let;s say £100), whereas if I buy the P&P machine it will cost £100 less but we have to cover the cost of the P&P machine, so the final price is the same".

It just opens a good future for other developments that could probably be delivered rapidly. At least that is what I understood from reading the thread. I usually react badly to "extra costs", but this time I just don't see any problem with it.
 
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