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Magazine compares active and passive ATC SCM50

Hi Tony, perhaps my comments came across a bit brash against older equipment. 'Twas not my intention as I realise newer is not necessarily better. I was aiming more at the design of the active crossovers in which designs have changed a lot and I feel, IMO, that the preference of the newer amps powering the passive crossover version is no surprise because I feel the ATC's active cross over to be a little dated compared to what is on offer today.

I realise that many on this forum have great fondness for older kit and I am not aiming my comment at old amps or speakers but merely design and implementation of active crossovers. In this area things have moved on in the last 20 years looking at the pro audio world and that is what I based my comment on.

My intention was not to troll or side step the thread but if you feel as the other guy above does that I am trolling then feel free to delete my comment and I'll stop commenting.
 
Ohmsford,

A while back Ashley James posted some distortion plots of ADM 9.1s run actively and passively. I superimposed and coloured the plots in Phototshop to make the comparison easier.

Active and passive version of the ADM9.1 playing a 100 Hz signal (red passive, blue active)
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Active and passive ADM9.1 playing a 3 kHz signal (red passive, blue active)
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I don't see a massive improvement, but active has lower distortion (generally around 3-5db lower, apart from a few peaks here and there). Lower is lower, of course, but the ear isn't particularly sensitive to changes of a few db.

As with most things in audio, I think it comes down to implementation, not the technology used, that makes the difference.

Joe
 
I don't totally agree about it being a level playing field for the last 20 years. My Deltas are way more advanced in technology and construction in all terms and as I sit here typing this on my phone, am listening to the holographic presentation my 50's just couldn't do. In fact they do a lot of thing the 50's couldn't. They're quicker, go deeper, higher and the midrange seems pitch perfect. They're way better IMHO. What this has got to do with time I'm not sure but these are a far more newer design with PWM Amps and Hails Motion dipole drivers for mid and High with a Kevlar 9" base unit. The cabinet design is equally well advanced too.
 
I don't totally agree about it being a level playing field for the last 20 years. My Deltas are way more advanced in technology and construction in all terms and as I sit here typing this on my phone, am listening to the holographic presentation my 50's just couldn't do. In fact they do a lot of thing the 50's couldn't. They're quicker, go deeper, higher and the midrange seems pitch perfect. They're way better IMHO. What this has got to do with time I'm not sure but these are a far more newer design with PWM Amps and Hails Motion dipole drivers for mid and High with a Kevlar 9" base unit. The cabinet design is equally well advanced too.

This was my point that Spacey has made, that the active design has been improved upon and that is all I was suggesting in my original comment. To others though, I don't want this thread to turn sour because of my opinion, which is only mine and wanted to share.

Joe,

Lets not bring AVI into it! :) Keep the thread on track! :)
 
Hi Tony, perhaps my comments came across a bit brash against older equipment. 'Twas not my intention as I realise newer is not necessarily better. I was aiming more at the design of the active crossovers in which designs have changed a lot and I feel, IMO, that the preference of the newer amps powering the passive crossover version is no surprise because I feel the ATC's active cross over to be a little dated compared to what is on offer today.

In what area do you consider active crossovers to have improved? I can see your point if you mean those speakers with inbuilt digital room modelling / correction etc, that clearly didn't exist 20 years back, but the likes of ATC, AVI etc use technology that is as old as the hills (conventional crossover slopes, class AB amps etc). I'm not sure about Adam as I've not researched them.

Tony.

(Who's recently rejected two very highly regarded modern passive speakers and returned to a 40+ year old pair!)
 
Ohms,

I'm not looking to bash Ash or ADMs. I'm just presenting distortion plots with real data for the discussion. (These are the only graphs I've seen showing the difference between active and passive operation.)

It would have been nice if the German review of the ATCs had some distortion plots, but all I saw were some Pegel & Klirrverlauf squiggles, whatever those are. Markus, what's a Klirrverlauf?

Joe
 
My Deltas are way more advanced in technology and construction in all terms and as I sit here typing this on my phone, am listening to the holographic presentation my 50's just couldn't do.

Deltas?

Sorry I haven't kept up - what are they?
 
In what area do you consider active crossovers to have improved? I can see your point if you mean those speakers with inbuilt digital room modelling / correction etc, that clearly didn't exist 20 years back, but the likes of ATC, AVI etc use technology that is as old as the hills (conventional crossover slopes, class AB amps etc). I'm not sure about Adam as I've not researched them.

Tony, I am no expert and my comment was based just on what I have read and listened to and as I said I may be wrong but was just an opinion. I base it on the proliferation over the years of active crossover designs being implemented and some producing good results and others producing poorer ones. This is using the "old ways" as you say but finer tuning over the years of perfecting driver phase, matching more suitable amps, driver time correction, better quality components, better test equipment to measure, digital filters etc. The upsurge over the years has produced some fantastic actives and as Spacey has discovered, as amazing as the ATC 50's are they are top trumped by the more advanced Adam's.

After all, if you believe the hype, then Event Opals took 3 years and several million dollars to play around with "the old ways" to produce a great active design. So with these things that is why I thought perhaps the older implementation of the ATC's actives may be being shown up as a bit dated when the passive version is fed with a modern amp. But I could be wrong of course... I was not listening to the review!!
 
Not that I'm looking to create a lot of work for anyone, but an interesting bake-off might be Spacey's active ADAMs vs tubes and big ol' passive horns, a comparison of what's state-of-the-art hi-fi technology today with what was the dog's danglies 40 years ago.

Joe
 
Well I have to say that the Adam loudspeakers I had at home for a month were nowhere near as good, not remotely anywhere near as good, as my ATC 100s. The fancy tweeter was utterly disjointed from the rest of the presentation, had it's own strange character, and the mid-range was poor. I thought they were very much 'tish and boom' speakers - a long way from neutral. True, this was about 5 years ago, but there is no inherent advantage in novelty. ATCs way of doing things, especially in the midrange, may well just be right. The disadvantages are huge manufacturing cost - the midrange units themselves weigh more than some speakers - and inefficiency. You do have to get ATCs well off the floor though - something that the supplied stands, and possibly Spacey, don't manage. I get an utterly massive solid tangible credible soundfield. Electrostatics are a similarly 'dated' design - but they too still do things that other loudspeakers can only dream of. Picking some single arbitrary measurement doesn't really help that much. There's a good paper here on the advantages (as ATC see them) of active over passive lousdpeakers. These include a better polar and radiated power response, invariant frequency response with respect to power input and 20dB less intermodulation distortion, not to mention 6dB more output.
 
Andy, which ADAMs did you try? The Tensor range are a complete different kettle to the pro speakers. It takes a lot of work to integrate dipole drivers properly.
 
Not that I'm looking to create a lot of work for anyone, but an interesting bake-off might be Spacey's active ADAMs vs tubes and big ol' passive horns, a comparison of what's state-of-the-art hi-fi technology today with what was the dog's danglies 40 years ago.

Joe

Now that's a good idea,perhaps the considered best of each decade since the 60's
 
Just listen to a track by U-ziq called Drum Light. It has a certain kinda distortion that the 50's just couldn't handle. It now plays and the reverberating bass line which kinda goes backwards is now totally understandable - well it is for U-ziq :)
 
There is nothing new under the sun of course, but you can get some really exceptional pro speakers that will give some serious (so called) Hi end speakers a run for their money all for the price of a Quantum mains lead. :p

volkerhifimail3995beu4.jpg
 
Long post, lots to say -- probably will fail.

I have always found a difference between the 50s and the 100s. The 100s are bigger, deeper, more of everything, weirdly whenever I hear tracks on 50s I feel the 100s sound slower and more paced. But that's just subjective ****. Pinch o salt required reflecting my prejudices that bigger speakers give me a bigger window on the world.

If I were building the speakers myself, I'd make some ATC 50's or 100 passives with Wilmslow kits.
If I were buying second hand, I'd try to get an active pair.
New?
Don't be silly, they are ridiculously expensive..

As y'all kno. I paid £1,600 for my s/h Black ATC 100As and then spent some time and effort on getting them up to SCM100ASL Pro status with new tweets and fancy veneers which involved ripping them apart. The leftovers are forming my little home project studio DIY actives. The cabinets are nothing special -- tore them open and they have no mystery to me, the amps are nothing special but they are designed for the speakers and are a "known load". The speakers are however IMO special. Old designs, sure! But do you see any of the Tannoy owners here complaining about the sounds they get?

Of course not. Good design works and is timeless. Holography I'll get onto later but that is not what I want in a studio monitor. I want to actually hear what was recorded (and unlike many here I know what I recorded!) I want to disassemble the sound while I am listening to it, tear it apart, work out how it is structured and how it works. Emotional attachment and Holography is for pussies.

I toyed with passive but felt it's easier to just get an active crossover than make a Passive Crossover and hamper yourself with a passive boutique 2KW stereo amp.

My DIYs are using three possibly dicked about with PA stereo amps and a s/h dbx driverack PA = change from £500. This way I use amps with less power requirements than Passive and still get adequate levels though, due to the active operation. That Passive ATC X/O means there's a fair bit of attenuation applied, ATC seems to 'need' powerful amps for the voltage swing, and not for the reactive loading!

My rationale is that by listening to good 1st gen sample sources in my studio (I am moving to 20-bit/96KHz samples that I make on my field recordings -- some are now B format as well) jacked into speakers with little in the way, I may actually hear a cleaner signal than the ATCs I already have in the living room with a source media passed through multitudes of compressors, limiters filters, served up on stampoed melted plastic and wrapped in static attractors.

I also hope if I nail the dbx active crossover for the space I am building, the amp load may be better balanced and reduce the distortion to a minimum for that topology.

However this is not gonna be a "my Disco Amp is better then a Naim"-type epiphany -- PA amps have a really mediocre PSRR but by inherently bandwidth-limiting the input to the amps with the active XO in the first place they'll probably perform pretty well. I think this is why the Amps in the ATC100s aren't that special but sound fine. As I'm using a digital XO I'll see if a brick wall above 25-30KHz on the treble might improve things. i.e i'll treat all three power amps as bandwidth-limited and that should help things a lot. There's some other trickery but the acoustics guy I'm using will determine that.

Of course it could all sound pants and I'll just have to bite the bullet and buy a ****y-but-well-reviewed Arye audiophile amp and go passive or something, but we shall see -- build starts next week.

PS just playing µZiq's Drum Light via Spotify. Awesome. Props! Plus I hear what you are saying WRT all that background data. I love all that texture that the track has. Like the very particular levelling clip that Moritz von Oswald always uses on Rhythm and Sound and on Basic Channel mixes. It sounds like grime until you hear is texture and shape and then you go "Ahhh! I Geddit"

PPS and before anyone else says it...

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there.
 
A number of years ago, when I was living in the U.S., I had a brief listen to active ATC 150s with a Naim CDS-3 and 252 upfront. There really were excellent speakers but so far out of my price range that they weren't even on my maybe-one-day wish list.

The active 150s definitely lean toward accuracy as opposed to colourful, though, so they may not be a good choice if you like your music with a distinct flavour.

Joe
 


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