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Luxman/Accuphase/Yamaha - Quality?

Gents, just to share a recent event which further reinforced my thoughts on the Luxman L-590AXII.

Several days ago, a member here wrote about the Sonneteer Orton having a diffused sound with poor imaging and placement of instruments in the mix in comparison to the LFD. Since I own the Orton which is a spare, I decided to put it through its paces and compare it to the Luxman for the 2nd or 3rd time. From previous experiences, the Orton is a rather delicate, refined and soft sounding amp but from memory it doesn't exhibit a diffused or smeared sound as described.

When I fired up the Sonneteer in the main system on the first day, I was expecting, more like hoping to hear a noticeable if not serious degradation in sound quality going from the Luxman to the Sonneteer. To my horror, that didn’t happen. The music actually sounded rather pleasant with the Sonneteer sounding quite close to the quality of the Luxman. To make matters worse, the Sonneteer was connected to a cheap power strip with an equally cheap power cord. Luxman goes directly to an upgraded unswitched wall socket with a good power cord. For a fairer comparison, the Sonneteer was then connected directly to the unswitched wall socket with the same power cord which was previously used on the Luxman. Again, another round of improvement for the Sonneteer. The sound snapped into focus and everything sounded tighter and more controlled with improved dynamics. The Acrolink cords had showed consistent results with an almost matching sound signature every time they were plugged into different components ; I was glad I heard the difference.

As I continued to listen to more familiar tracks throughout the day, all my worries have been put to rest. To cut to the chase, although the Sonneteer sounds very good, it is still outclassed by the Luxman. The overall engagement was still there with the Sonneteer, no doubt about it. Nevertheless, once you have experienced something that’s superior it’s difficult to not notice the difference in presentation, more specifically the downgrade in sound quality. The most apparent difference between the Sonneteer and Luxman is with the bass. The low bass and mid bass of the Sonneteer appear to be half-baked in comparison, sounding somewhat undeveloped. In other words, the bass sounds weak, light and subdued. On the other hand, the bass on the Luxman sounds full and has the weight. Next up is on the tone of instruments particularly piano. With the Sonneteer, the notes sound slightly pale and 2-dimensional whereas there is slight tube-like glow with the Luxman which contributes to an airier 3-dimensional feel. Other aspects of the sound reproduction such as imaging, clarity and detail etc. sound fairly similar to my ears.

A caveat is a pair of Isoacoustics Gaia 2 which was recently added to the speakers may have bridged the gap between the Luxman and Sonneteer. From memory, the Sonneteer Orton sounded more smeared and diffused before the Gaias were added to the speakers. Despite the improvement showed by the Sonneteer after the inclusion of the Gaias, the Luxman L-590AXII still managed to gain the upper hand and established superiority over the Sonneteer. This just goes to show that the Luxman L-590AXII is truly quality. Every time I compare an inferior amp to the Luxman, it just makes me feel fortunate and grateful to own the Luxman.

Before I wrap things up, just to add that I’ve finally managed to install the Furutech NCF booster on the Chord DAC by using the (unused) Sonneteer amp as a support. At this point I think I prefer this device on the DAC rather than the Luxman but will need more listening to confirm.

Furutech NCF booster sitting on top of the Orton.
IMG-20211010-090534.jpg
 
Hi all, Had a demo of an Accuphase C2150 pre and the E800 last Friday.
The pre wasn't much of an improvement on my C2420 and the E800, what a beast!, had a very nice presentation, with more air around instruments, a lush soundstage and of course a warmer sq, but in no way dull, on the contrary it had quite a sparkle to the top end.
Unfortunately, the dealer couldn't leave it with me, so only had a limited time with it, but it was enough to make me want to hear one again. Incidentally, the price of the E800 has dropped from 15K to 13.5.
The star of the demo was a DCS Bartok... I want one!
Mac
 
Hi all, Had a demo of an Accuphase C2150 pre and the E800 last Friday.
The pre wasn't much of an improvement on my C2420

Can't say I am surprised! Your next stop should be the C-2900, if you are continuing the pre/power route! (funds permitting obviously)

Nice to hear that the E-800 is coming down in price, I'd be curious what that means for the forthcoming E-5000.
 
Can't say I am surprised! Your next stop should be the C-2900, if you are continuing the pre/power route! (funds permitting obviously)

Nice to hear that the E-800 is coming down in price, I'd be curious what that means for the forthcoming E-5000.

I think you're probably right. I'm very happy at the moment and the dealer said I had a lovely balanced system, but the Bartok has to be the next addition... don't know when though.
Mac
 
@maccar
Thank you for your opinion concerning C-2420 vs. C-2150. As the built quality of the former is, imho, much better, I will opt for it. I guess together with a P-4500 I would have an amplifier combo which survived me for years. I am looking for a classic Accuphase Amp, I will use it together with a Naim streamer and a classic turntable like a Technics SL-1200/1500 and other vintage gear. Speakers will change every few month, from NS-1000M to JBL 4312 to Klipsch and so on, as I like to try different speaker designs.

KR, Dani
 
@maccar
Thank you for your opinion concerning C-2420 vs. C-2150. As the built quality of the former is, imho, much better, I will opt for it. I guess together with a P-4500 I would have an amplifier combo which survived me for years. I am looking for a classic Accuphase Amp, I will use it together with a Naim streamer and a classic turntable like a Technics SL-1200/1500 and other vintage gear. Speakers will change every few month, from NS-1000M to JBL 4312 to Klipsch and so on, as I like to try different speaker designs.

KR, Dani

Hi Dani, glad you found my thoughts useful... yes, you will have a wonderful set up there.
Which classic amp have you got in mind?
Mac
 
Hi Mac, Sorry, with the "classic" amp I mean something like a C-2420 with a poweramp like P-4500/4200 or an a-47/48.
I am sure such a combo would outlive me as the Accuphase brand is famous for durability and reliability. And I love the look of it. The VU-Meters are the best looking meters on the market imho!
Dani
 
Hi Mac, Sorry, with the "classic" amp I mean something like a C-2420 with a poweramp like P-4500/4200 or an a-47/48.
I am sure such a combo would outlive me as the Accuphase brand is famous for durability and reliability. And I love the look of it. The VU-Meters are the best looking meters on the market imho!
Dani

No worries, I see what you mean... I can vouch for the C2420 P4200 combo for sure.
Keep us updated when the time comes.
Mac
 
I am sure such a combo would outlive me as the Accuphase brand is famous for durability and reliability. And I love the look of it. The VU-Meters are the best looking meters on the market imho!
Dani

Well you are probably not wrong regarding the components outliving you! As for the VU-meters, the ones from Luxman aren't too shabby either - and I wish Accuphase would do the same trick of slowly lighting them up like Luxman does, which can be seen in a direct comparison in the first few seconds of this video:


As for the rest of your plans, I think a Technics 1210G (i.e. the new black version which was released a few months ago) would go extremely well with your Accuphase gear.
 
I'm very happy at the moment and the dealer said I had a lovely balanced system, but the Bartok has to be the next addition... don't know when though.
Mac

So an Accuphase CDP is off the table? It would be an interesting comparison and I am not sure a similarly priced Accuphase CDP would win over the dCS Bartok, however the former could reduce box count significantly, given your current gear - provided that's somehow relevant for you.
 
Hi all, Had a demo of an Accuphase C2150 pre and the E800 last Friday.
The pre wasn't much of an improvement on my C2420 and the E800, what a beast!, had a very nice presentation, with more air around instruments, a lush soundstage and of course a warmer sq, but in no way dull, on the contrary it had quite a sparkle to the top end.

Mac, one more thing about your demo - what I dislike about Accuphase integrateds is their high gain or rather the inability to change the gain as it is possible with Accuphase pre and power amps (as I am sure you are aware). How did you experience that between the pre/power and the E-800?

It's not very user friendly to me to only have a volume pot travel from 7:00 to 8:30 available and everything above that is way too loud - granted, this is also dependant on how efficient your speakers and how high the output voltage of your sources are, but still. And, based on my experiences and also what you can read on this forum, it's a problem with many other manufacturers too. Anyway, I have my pre on +12dB gain and the power amp on -12dB, and get a nice useful range out of it.

I really wish Accuphase would introduce this feature in their integrateds as well - why not use the 'Recorder' dial for that? (pretty sure hardly anyone uses that anymore these days)
 
@vln: yes indeed I am looking for a Technics, not for the black one, for the Silver SL-1200G. But so I would need a phono preamplifier too, one item more on sideboard in the living room . This let me thinking to go with a SL-1500, it has the phonopre built in. Do you think the 1500 isn't a good match?
 
@vln: yes indeed I am looking for a Technics, not for the black one, for the Silver SL-1200G. But so I would need a phono preamplifier too, one item more on sideboard in the living room . This let me thinking to go with a SL-1500, it has the phonopre built in. Do you think the 1500 isn't a good match?

I was interested in the 1200G for a while and as I understand it, it is significantly better than the 1500. However I have not heard them side by side, so if you can I would suggest to arrange a demo.

If vinyl is a primary source for you and not just something you only use every once in a while then a system built around a C-2420/C-2450 might be a bit unchallenged ("underchallenged"?) with an 1500 if you see what I mean - a bit like putting a Ford Fiesta motor into a Ferrari. (also consider the price ratio between these two components)
 
Yes, I see what you mean. I am happy to own a very good Naim system at my office already. But I like to have something better than the Atom I use right now in the living room. I like hifi and vintage gear a lot, and very important for me, my son just starts to interest about playing records.
All this facts brings me to the conclusion I like to invest in some gear for the needs. An Accuphase amp-combo would be in my mind for that. I own some classic speakers like 4312, NS-1000, SCM7 and so on, as different high end sources already too.

A turntable I don't have right now. I own some records, and would like to discover more of them together with my son as a hobby we may have in common.
In the living room the primarily sources are streaming, internet radio like RadioParadise and amplifying the sound of the TV box. Some tapes and others sources will be add in the future eventually.

With this in mind, what do you think would be the best for me? For a starter, a SL-1200G with a separate phono pre amp and a cartridge are a lot of invest. A SL-1500 all in one would show my son and me the beginning of hearing records together and have a common hobby for a modest expense.

If we would like to use a record player regularly , I could easily upgrade it to a better one later.
Is the 1500 not a good record player?

kind regards, Dani
 
So an Accuphase CDP is off the table? It would be an interesting comparison and I am not sure a similarly priced Accuphase CDP would win over the dCS Bartok, however the former could reduce box count significantly, given your current gear - provided that's somehow relevant for you.

It's something I have thought of, but have struggled to get a home demo of one... funny enough, I saw a DP800/801 combo earlier on the net at a very good price, but I think they are quite old.
Mac
 
Mac, one more thing about your demo - what I dislike about Accuphase integrateds is their high gain or rather the inability to change the gain as it is possible with Accuphase pre and power amps (as I am sure you are aware). How did you experience that between the pre/power and the E-800?

It's not very user friendly to me to only have a volume pot travel from 7:00 to 8:30 available and everything above that is way too loud - granted, this is also dependant on how efficient your speakers and how high the output voltage of your sources are, but still. And, based on my experiences and also what you can read on this forum, it's a problem with many other manufacturers too. Anyway, I have my pre on +12dB gain and the power amp on -12dB, and get a nice useful range out of it.

I really wish Accuphase would introduce this feature in their integrateds as well - why not use the 'Recorder' dial for that? (pretty sure hardly anyone uses that anymore these days)

To be honest, we didn't have a great deal of time to try everything and sadly they couldn't leave the kit with me to have a play about.
Mac
 
Yes, I see what you mean. I am happy to own a very good Naim system at my office already. But I like to have something better than the Atom I use right now in the living room. I like hifi and vintage gear a lot, and very important for me, my son just starts to interest about playing records.
All this facts brings me to the conclusion I like to invest in some gear for the needs. An Accuphase amp-combo would be in my mind for that. I own some classic speakers like 4312, NS-1000, SCM7 and so on, as different high end sources already too.

A turntable I don't have right now. I own some records, and would like to discover more of them together with my son as a hobby we may have in common.
In the living room the primarily sources are streaming, internet radio like RadioParadise and amplifying the sound of the TV box. Some tapes and others sources will be add in the future eventually.

With this in mind, what do you think would be the best for me? For a starter, a SL-1200G with a separate phono pre amp and a cartridge are a lot of invest. A SL-1500 all in one would show my son and me the beginning of hearing records together and have a common hobby for a modest expense.

If we would like to use a record player regularly , I could easily upgrade it to a better one later.
Is the 1500 not a good record player?

kind regards, Dani

As I understand it, the 1500 seems like a competent TT for the price, but someone with actual first hand experience (unlike me) will be in a better position to comment. I used to own a 1200mk2 for a few years and they have been unfairly underrated for a long time, as I thought it was rather good for the price.

So my comment was not so much about if the 1500 is a good or bad TT on an absolute scale, but more about the context in which it would be used - a ca. 1'000 EUR TT driving a pre/power combo costing >20'000 EUR (the C-2450 plus an Accuphase power amp) would be considered a bit unbalanced by most people here. HOWEVER, given your intended usage, i.e. dipping your toe (back) into vinyl with your son, this might be all the TT you need at this point, but then perhaps you should also consider buying second hand.

BTW it is commendable that you're doing this together with your son, hopefully this will give this hobby/passion of ours some much needed fresh blood!
 
I am aware absolutely as a final point that a 1000 Euro TT is not worthy of an Accuphase amplifier combo that costs thousands of euros.
The discovery of the medium together with my son is the point. As you mentioned, the hobby/passion from audiophiles like us needs to become fresh blood and the support of beginners.
As I love to enjoy my music with equipment on a higher level than the average, my goal is to bring the same to my son. Even my son and I going on to buy vinyl, hopefully together, more and more, I am very happy to show him and discover with him a higher level of analog disc playing as with a Technics SL-1500.

Of course I am considering to buy second hand as I do always, but to find a SL-1200G is very difficult as a second hand unit in the heart of Europe where I am living.
So the Idea of buying a "plug and play" turntable like the Technics SL-1500 comes to my mind. It would enable us to discover the medium of playing LPs.

kind regards, Daniel
 


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