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LP12 Stick or Twist?

As to the OPs question, I say keep the LP12 and buy another deck anyway.

in point, I was getting ready to throw my LP12 in the bin last night (okay, slight exageration) as it just sounds terrible compared to my Technics 1210GR. In fairness, it's more that a lot of my records sound terrible or not enjoyable to listen to through my LP12 (technically speaking, I'm talking LP12 + Tannoys + living room). My better sounding records, mostly pre-digital records, sound great of course. But I've got a lot of modern vinyl that just sound rubbish going on unbearable through my LP12; so much so that I always end up playing the same records over and over, the ones I know that sound great. In contrast, I've yet to hear a bad sounding record on my Technics deck, everything is just so enjoyable.

To cut a long story short, I've aborted plans to use my Technics deck in my bedroom system and instead have returned it to its rightful place in my living room; for some reason, the Technics deck has much more synergy with my bad records and my Tannoys, unlike my LP12 which can only play the good stuff. Seriously, I just can't live with how bad so many of my records sound on my LP12 (LP12 + Tannoys + room), and knowing how good the Technics deck is, well to not use my Technics deck in my main system feels like a form of self-inflicted harm.

The thing is, all my records used to sound good and quite enjoyable before I bought my Tannoys so I know my LP12 has the potential to boogie. So seeing as I do need a turntable in my bedroom, I put my LP12 in there last night and lo and behold, it sounds great. Paired up once again with my Kan-like Kralk Audio BC-30s, the LP12 is in its element and pumping the boogie into my bedroom like it used to do in my living room.

Although my Technics deck sounds great in either room with either system, my LP12 is a poor match with my Tannoys (+room), but it's an excellent match for the bass-lite bookshelf speakers in my bedroom so that's where it's gonna stay. So yeah, OP, buy another deck anyway and see what it brings - you just might end up with the best of both worlds :)
As to the OPs question, I say keep the LP12 and buy another deck anyway.

Case in point, I was getting ready to throw my LP12 in the bin last night (okay, slight exageration) as it just sounds terrible compared to my Technics 1210GR. In fairness, it's more that a lot of my records sound terrible or not enjoyable to listen to through my LP12 (technically speaking, I'm talking LP12 + Tannoys + living room). My better sounding records, mostly pre-digital records, sound great of course. But I've got a lot of modern vinyl that just sound rubbish going on unbearable through my LP12; so much so that I always end up playing the same records over and over, the ones I know that sound great. In contrast, I've yet to hear a bad sounding record on my Technics deck, everything is just so enjoyable.

To cut a long story short, I've aborted plans to use my Technics deck in my bedroom system and instead have returned it to its rightful place in my living room; for some reason, the Technics deck has much more synergy with my bad records and my Tannoys, unlike my LP12 which can only play the good stuff. Seriously, I just can't live with how bad so many of my records sound on my LP12 (LP12 + Tannoys + room), and knowing how good the Technics deck is, well to not use my Technics deck in my main system feels like a form of self-inflicted harm.

The thing is, all my records used to sound good and quite enjoyable before I bought my Tannoys so I know my LP12 has the potential to boogie. So seeing as I do need a turntable in my bedroom, I put my LP12 in there last night and lo and behold, it sounds great. Paired up once again with my Kan-like Kralk Audio BC-30s, the LP12 is in its element and pumping the boogie into my bedroom like it used to do in my living room.

Although my Technics deck sounds great in either room with either system, my LP12 is a poor match with my Tannoys (+room), but it's an excellent match for the bass-lite bookshelf speakers in my bedroom so that's where it's gonna stay. So yeah, OP, buy another deck anyway and see what it brings - you just might end up with the best of both worlds :)
What’s the make up of the LP12?
 
What power supply?

Ah, I forgot about that. DIY Norton Air Power (DIY by Mr Pig).

EDIT: Tannoys are Eaton Legacy, but the other main component is my living room, it's too small to handle the bass output of the Tannoys, though room treatment has helped in that regard.
 
@windhoek - interesting stuff. It's been argued before that Linn has spent the last 30+ years making the LP12 sound less like an LP12 with the various upgrades. A lot of us think that the new versions had much less 'character' but play the music better and without giving up on the virtues versus digital, but there are plenty of people who just want to stay with the pre-Cirkus sound.
 
@windhoek - interesting stuff. It's been argued before that Linn has spent the last 30+ years making the LP12 sound less like an LP12 with the various upgrades. A lot of us think that the new versions had much less 'character' but play the music better and without giving up on the virtues versus digital, but there are plenty of people who just want to stay with the pre-Cirkus sound.

I don't have much to say about modern LP12s other than I've heard some on demo at a local dealer (Bollostore), but I have heard that myself, that Linn have cleaned things up to the extent that it's obviously different to an early, pre-Cirkus LP12. I'm too cheap to throw money at my LP12 to bring it up to modern spec anyway so I'm quite happy with it as long as I can get it working in one of my systems :)
 
I don't have much to say about modern LP12s other than I've heard some on demo at a local dealer (Bollostore), but I have heard that myself, that Linn have cleaned things up to the extent that it's obviously different to an early, pre-Cirkus LP12. I'm too cheap to throw money at my LP12 to bring it up to modern spec anyway so I'm quite happy with it as long as I can get it working in one of my systems :)

Thanks for clarifying the make up of your LP12 and sorry it’s not working out for you. I listen mostly to my LP12 through two different pairs of Tannoy DC loudspeakers and I haven’t experienced what your going through. I got much enjoyment running a pre-Cirkus bearing with the stock steel subchassis but with Ekos/Troika, Klyde and a Lingo 1. Maybe there’s something with the setup or the combination of third party parts you’re using.

I’ve never been a fan of the RB300 on a LP12. A tonearm that cannot be disconnected from the suspension during setup really works against one’s ability to insure the setup is optimized. The times we had the RB300 demo setup in our shop, customers found the Linn Basik Plus more musical.
 
The times we had the RB300 demo setup in our shop, customers found the Linn Basik Plus more musical.

Oh dear, don't you think there may have been an element of "I don't really feel confident enough in my owns ears to question the oh so superior knowledge of the Linn dealer here? I know what I hear regardless of any dealer and I would not be afraid of telling them so.
 
I’ve never been a fan of the RB300 on a LP12. A tonearm that cannot be disconnected from the suspension during setup really works against one’s ability to insure the setup is optimized. The times we had the RB300 demo setup in our shop, customers found the Linn Basik Plus more musical.

If you can't get an RB300 to beat a Basik Plus there must indeed be something far wrong.

How the suspension behaves when the arm is disconnected is largely irrelevant as in use it's not working this way. Setting the deck up with a Rega arm is not that hard although I have seen loads of pictures of decks that were not right. Few get the cable dressing right, thinking that all they have to do is get the cable to not interfere with the bounce. It also has to stabilize the suspension laterally, which a correctly dressed Linn arm does, but a Rega cable doesn't want to do this. And if you don't fix it kiss bye bye to your speed stability.
 
That bearing has something. I managed to find a really good condition pre-Cirkus bearing for my second LP12 and it's got a vibrancy to the sound the Cirkus lacks. Always was that way. It's a shame you can't buy these bearings new any more.

Having had a black liner bearing in the past have to say a well set up LP12 with it on has got that classic LP12 sound if that exists ?
That upper bass bloom which seems to inject more PRAT if you like into tracks especially rock and very enjoyable to listen to.
A mate had a LP12 - Ittok - Troika years ago and his dealer said you have got to try the Cirkus he did but returned it as he felt the old magic had gone and the dealer put the old bearing back on.

To some degree I miss it a bit.Yes the Karousel is so clean sounding and digs far more out with timbre - soundstage -detail and is very clean sounding but at a price.
 
@windhoek - interesting stuff. It's been argued before that Linn has spent the last 30+ years making the LP12 sound less like an LP12 with the various upgrades. A lot of us think that the new versions had much less 'character' but play the music better and without giving up on the virtues versus digital, but there are plenty of people who just want to stay with the pre-Cirkus sound.

Good point Nick, my personal favorite LP12 was the Klimax of the day back in the early 90's consisting of original Rosewood plinth -not to be confused with the Rosenut- Black lined bearing, Ekos, Troika and Lingo. This setup made me happy for many years which also included several Goldring rebuilds of my 2 Troikas.

The Linn lost us with the introduction of the Cirkus, with our shop thinking at the time it was a business decision to help the LP12 better integrate with Linns push forward into Digital at that time.
 
A mate had a LP12 - Ittok - Troika years ago and his dealer said you have got to try the Cirkus he did but returned it as he felt the old magic had gone and the dealer put the old bearing back on.

I did the same. I got the Cirkus not long after it came out. Initially I was impressed but soon I was frustrated and trying to get the soul back. Years later someone said to me 'It's the Cirkus, take it out'. I replaced the Cirkus with an older bearing and kept it that way.

My main deck has a Cirkus and I do like the deck but it is a bit 'sat on' compared to the pre-Cirkus deck. This is the kind of thing that puts me off the Karousel.
 
I did the same. I got the Cirkus not long after it came out. Initially I was impressed but soon I was frustrated and trying to get the soul back. Years later someone said to me 'It's the Cirkus, take it out'. I replaced the Cirkus with an older bearing and kept it that way.

My main deck has a Cirkus and I do like the deck but it is a bit 'sat on' compared to the pre-Cirkus deck. This is the kind of thing that puts me off the Karousel.

Karousel is better than Cirkus but still loses out to the Soul of the earlier Black Bearing, but since the Black Bearing is virtually impossible to find in new condition these days the Karousel is probably the way to go now by default..
 
@tpetsch and @Mr Pig - it look like you are at the hardcore end of LP12 owners!

I got mine with the then-pretty-new Cirkus. IIRC, there were certainly some LPs that were more transporting/ mesmerising on older LP12s (plus some chrome bumper Naims and Kans) - quite a lot of prog for example. There were also quite a few LPs that didn't seem to work with old ones at all. To me, the Cirkus-ed versions gave me a stronger impression of just playing what was on the record in as even-handed way as possible, rather than making some apparently sweeter and/ or more impressive - and not bothering with the rest.

When the Michell Orbe came out, a mate got one - plus SME 5, some Lyra I don't remember, 52, 135s and Quad ESL 63s, quickly replaced with Shahinian Hawks. I ended up babysitting most of it while he was in transit.

The surprise was the Orbe. It was really impressive , quieter in background, and better in stereo image and CD-standard bass 'slam'. However, within a week or two, I had swapped my LP12 back in, despite its weaknesses, largely because it made more music more fun. I think that makes the Circused LP12 a good compromise at the time - more fun and more involving than decks aiming essentially at neutrality, but more neutral (and hence good with more records) than the pre-Cirkus LP12.

Does that make any sense/ ring a bell?

If yes, then I'd encourage @Mr Pig to hear a Karousel. It does seem to let more music through, but I didn't find the result sterile - quite the opposite. And some of the records that I particularly enjoyed were just the sort of thing that I used to be transfixed by on a pre-Cirkus LP12s when young. I don't think that a Karousel gives any more of that old-style sheen of course, but I certainly don't think it has less magic than a Cirkus - it just does better what a Cirkus does. And, based on last time I heard anything else, I'd still rather have my LP12 than an Orbe, a P10 or any other turntable I have actually heard.
 
If yes, then I'd encourage Mr Pig to hear a Karousel.

I'd like to, but they cost £800. That's a lot of money for a bearing. I am happy to believe the overwhelming reports of its effectiveness but I grudge the money when I have a record player, two record players, that work fairly well.

What are we going to do, upgrade forever? Won't it ever be enough?
 
In terms of voicing, I think the LP12 has evolved to suit recordings of the day. My 80s Valhalla/Ittok deck with Naim CB amps sounds spot on with most 70s and early 80s analogue recordings. And the 92-spec Lingo/Ekos deck with Linn LK amps sounds equally enjoyable with late 80s/early 90s digital recordings that were often hard or harsh on other setups. To my ears that synergy also applied to later LP12s and recordings of the day- there are definitely some modern recordings that better suited the Klimax LP12, Klimax Kontrol, etc. that I had in about 2008. So I can see why neutrality makes sense as a way to avoid favouring one recording era over another, although I will be sticking with my black liner bearings in the foreseeable future :)
 
Thanks for clarifying the make up of your LP12 and sorry it’s not working out for you. I listen mostly to my LP12 through two different pairs of Tannoy DC loudspeakers and I haven’t experienced what your going through. I got much enjoyment running a pre-Cirkus bearing with the stock steel subchassis but with Ekos/Troika, Klyde and a Lingo 1. Maybe there’s something with the setup or the combination of third party parts you’re using.

I’ve never been a fan of the RB300 on a LP12. A tonearm that cannot be disconnected from the suspension during setup really works against one’s ability to insure the setup is optimized. The times we had the RB300 demo setup in our shop, customers found the Linn Basik Plus more musical.

I was perfectly happy with my LP12 for years so I know it's not the deck per se that's the issue: it's that I bought a pair of speakers that are simply too big for my room in the bass department. Add on to that a phat bottomed turntable and modern records that are on the compressed side of things are always going to sound too much in your face. Thankfully, my Technics deck isn't phat at the bottom, so it's much more accommodating in allowing me to play modern records that would otherwise sound too compressed.

But at least I'm now in a happy place with my LP12 as it's singing like the champ it is in my bedroom system. Fwiw, it's not obvious to me that my LP12 is a better deck than my 1210GR so it might well be that both decks are in their optimal positions: Technics deck in the living room with my Tannoys and LP12 in my bedroom with my bass-lite bookshelf speakers.
 


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