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Listening techniques to evaluate high-end hi-fi systems
- Thread starter Blzebub
- Start date
..... He can't tell a piano from a distorted multi layer synth I agree it's not a brilliant test, however a wide variety of music was played over a period of about 2 hours, including classical recordings of piano music, rock (Counting Crows), alt rock (The National) and male vocal (speech - the ubiquitous Daft Punk Moroder monologue). The MA track was the first one where my repeated complaint of distortion was actually taken seriously, prompting a comparison with another system, some head-scratching, and then later the explanation of incorrect listening.
No brand-names, please. Once you put a brand up, objective discussion will cease.
merlin
Avatar changed - Town names deemed offensive.
OK.
I take it you were listening at elevated levels? The loudspeaker you were probably listening to does seem to be somewhat compromised to be fair - I wouldn't want to push the levels with that cabinet design.
Reminds me though of the time Neil and I visited Bob at ATC in Stroud for a demo of the Anniversary 50. We both thought something amiss and I emailed Bob to say we were fairly sure one of the drive units was wired out of phase - Only to be told that ATC don't do that and that we must effectively be deaf.
Not a dig at ATC btw who make some excellent loudspeakers. I just think the British HiFi industry is full of people unable to accept any form of criticism even though it may be valid and help them improve their products.
I take it you were listening at elevated levels? The loudspeaker you were probably listening to does seem to be somewhat compromised to be fair - I wouldn't want to push the levels with that cabinet design.
Reminds me though of the time Neil and I visited Bob at ATC in Stroud for a demo of the Anniversary 50. We both thought something amiss and I emailed Bob to say we were fairly sure one of the drive units was wired out of phase - Only to be told that ATC don't do that and that we must effectively be deaf.
Not a dig at ATC btw who make some excellent loudspeakers. I just think the British HiFi industry is full of people unable to accept any form of criticism even though it may be valid and help them improve their products.
So was the distortion apparent on all music ? ..... Objective discussion needs data, which we are a little short on here.
Listening also needs an open mind, could the system be revealing previously unheard information that was new to preconceived ideas?
We don't know the equipment, the venue or the set-up so no idea what you heard was correct or broken. Or just not meeting or sounding like a past experiences of the same music, which what's to say that was "correct".
If someone enters a dealer or a demo already knowing how it should sound, with a fixed idea of what is "correct" then what is the point of the demo?
Is it just to complain that the demo system is wrong or poor? or is it to gain a different or new perspective on how it can sound.... which you choose is personal choice, not a matter or right or wrong.
Listening also needs an open mind, could the system be revealing previously unheard information that was new to preconceived ideas?
We don't know the equipment, the venue or the set-up so no idea what you heard was correct or broken. Or just not meeting or sounding like a past experiences of the same music, which what's to say that was "correct".
If someone enters a dealer or a demo already knowing how it should sound, with a fixed idea of what is "correct" then what is the point of the demo?
Is it just to complain that the demo system is wrong or poor? or is it to gain a different or new perspective on how it can sound.... which you choose is personal choice, not a matter or right or wrong.
doctorf
left footed right winger
It's a bit like telling a new mum that her baby is ugly.
You are either insulting the dealer whose livelihood depends on selling the stuff or you insult your friend who has just spent a fortune on his new hifi system.
None go down well.
The thread is about listening techniques, and not hi-fi equipment, so the equipment used is irrelevant. And once you put a brand name on pfm, there will be a bun-fight between fanboys and haterz, and that is not germane.
Yes I thought there was audible distortion in both the midrange, and the bass on all the music played. Some of the music was previously unheard by me. Everything was set-up very carefully in a dedicated and well-designed listening environment, and was sounding very good, according to the demo-er.
onlyconnect
pfm Member
There's distortion in the Eagles track Peaceful Easy Feeling. Never noticed until I had a pair of rather revealing active speakers. Now I always hear it. In this instance, not the fault of the hi-fi (though you could reasonably argue that a less revealing system might give more pleasure).
Tim
Tim
Whaleblue
Southbound
It really does sound like something was not right, perhaps a fixable problem such as a badly fitted/loose drive unit.
If this is the case, as I suspect you believe, I'd suggest you have the wrong place from which to start thinking about listening techniques, as your thought processes will be compromised.
Disbeliever
pfm Member
You must always take your own CD's to a demo, solves a lot of issues.
Joe Hutch
Mate of the bloke
I've been reading/hearing about this 'not listening properly' bollocks for over 30 years. It's nonsense, invented by marketeers and 'gurus' who want you to like certain things. If you don't like those things, they'll try to persuade you that it's down to a failing in you rather than a failing in the product, or a difference in tastes.
Patrick Dixon
Imagineer
Distortion just means that it's not fully representing 'the truth'. In the case of a Hi-Fi system that might mean missing something out as well as adding something that shouldn't be there.
pure sound
Trade: manufacturer/distributor
You can only ever really judge HiFi 'specialists' by the results they achieve. All the talk/hyperbole/marketing is for nothing if the results don't please you. If something about a demonstration doesn't seem right & they can give you a plausible explanation of the shortcoming ie room acoustics or somesuch then that might be a mitigating circumstance. Otherwise you did the right thing in walking away. Their taste & perception of what is good or correct doesn't tally with yours. It happens often. By the same token be mindful that your own preferences may not suit someone else so it's unwise to assert that they are ever anything other than your preferences.
The demoed system was obviously faulty.
Anyone with a good inner reference will detect distortion produced by the replay system.
Teardrop, the track you were listening to was it cd or vinyl?
On the cd version there is more compression on the mix wich gives the vocal a more edgier signature, the soundstage is also narrower compared to the 12 inch vinyl.
But the synthesized piano chords are clean regardless of format.
Anyone with a good inner reference will detect distortion produced by the replay system.
Teardrop, the track you were listening to was it cd or vinyl?
On the cd version there is more compression on the mix wich gives the vocal a more edgier signature, the soundstage is also narrower compared to the 12 inch vinyl.
But the synthesized piano chords are clean regardless of format.
Was the expensive more detailed and revealed the recorded distortion or was it adding it's own?
Was the cheaper system free of distortion or not able to retrieve the finer detail in the recording?
Was one room better damped and had less reflected sound?
Too many variables to lay blame.
In terms of how to listen, then for it depends if I'm comparing speakers or electronics.
Speakers first I want the tone and balance to be somewhere how I like, then I'll judge if they sound engaging, "live" (which I like) do they draw me into the tune, so then I'd be more following the Linn Tune dem idea once the basics seem in order.
For electronics i'm more focused on the tune and how engaging it is, as tonally little changes on electronics these days....
Was the cheaper system free of distortion or not able to retrieve the finer detail in the recording?
Was one room better damped and had less reflected sound?
Too many variables to lay blame.
In terms of how to listen, then for it depends if I'm comparing speakers or electronics.
Speakers first I want the tone and balance to be somewhere how I like, then I'll judge if they sound engaging, "live" (which I like) do they draw me into the tune, so then I'd be more following the Linn Tune dem idea once the basics seem in order.
For electronics i'm more focused on the tune and how engaging it is, as tonally little changes on electronics these days....
Tony L
Administrator
I've witnessed enough dems to realise there are many ways of listening to things, many agendas, many versions of the truth. This applies to everyone: dealers, punters, 'gurus' etc. I realised quite a long time ago now that the only opinion that matters to me is my own and understanding that is plenty enough of a challenge! I honestly don't care about anyone else's viewpoint and neither do I expect any consensus as I've seen far too many folk actively prefer things that sound wrong or just plain awful to me. As such I'm not defensive as I'm not attempting to convert anyone to anything - I expect disparity. I find the way many others listen to music quite fascinating, but that's a whole other topic.
FWIW if I'm in any doubt as to whether any 'distortion' I'm hearing is on the track or not (a huge 'if' with things as heavily processed and smothered in FX as the Massive Attack example) I'll use headphones. I have a pair of Sennheiser HD-600s and in matters like this I trust them over *any* system as they entirely remove the room, the crossover and any multi-driver time / phase distortion from the equation. As my own interest is vintage audio kit I've found them very useful indeed when fault-diagnosing etc. I've even got a Can Opener box that enables me to connect them to the speaker outputs of the amp so I can establish if what I think I'm hearing is in the amp or speaker (useful with vintage tube amps). In the overwhelming majority of cases issues where I've felt were distortions were in the system they were actually clearly present on the source material via the cans, just highlighted or emphasised by the system in a slightly less than balanced manner. That's when it all starts to get confusing!
YNWOAN
100% Analogue
If James can't describe the specific distortion he heard, and he seems reluctant/unable to, then the rest is mute. A very nice chap once pointed out 'distortion' in a demo we were both attending, I couldn't hear any and when I asked him for clarification it turned out that what he was actually hearing was the close miked sound of the plectrum moving on the nylon strings of the guitar...