Linn

[irb]

To return (again) to the OP's question, Drakemire Drive does indeed look out onto Linn Park. And yes, "linn" is a Scots word for a waterfall or weir. The missing piece of the jigsaw is the fact that the White Cart flows through Linn Park, and there is a sizeable weir right in the middle of the park, hence the name. There you go.

 

[sonddek]

Just to respond further to the original question, and for those unfamiliar with Scottish geography, a Linn has a specific meaning in Scotland. It's a cutting formed by a fast flowing river when it suddenly meets hard rock. If the rock has no weak spots a waterfall is the result, but if there are any narrow crevices etc the water will cut a narrow channel. The most well known is probably the Linn of Dee, near Braemar in Aberdeenshire. You can step across a cutting that goes down 10 feet or more to the water surface, and the water itself can be up to 50 foot deep (Scuba divers swim through it...) See the video on this page: https://www.nts.org.uk/visit/places/mar-lodge-estate

Now that was worth reading. A lovely thing.

 

[matt j]

Out of curiosity, at the time what was at the bottom of the AR and Thorens spindles?

Around the time the patent dispute kicked off Thorens had introduced a similar spindle point for the TD-160.

I'm no Thorens afficiando but I think the TD-125 came out late 60s and that had the single point bearing, then it went in the 160 as mentioned but in fact some late production 150s I believe had it also because my 150 has one. I suppose it could have a 160 sub platter but it was a pretty much original bog standard unmolested example so I'd be surprised if someone had randomly swapped the sub platter.

 

[Paul R]

TD Platter Bearings (theanalogdept.com) has some images of Thorens bearings. It looks like the switch from captive ball bearing to machined spherical point happened in the early 70s. Must have been something in the water.

 

[cre009]

I'm no Thorens afficiando but I think the TD-125 came out late 60s and that had the single point bearing, then it went in the 160 as mentioned but in fact some late production 150s I believe had it also because my 150 has one. I suppose it could have a 160 sub platter but it was a pretty much original bog standard unmolested example so I'd be surprised if someone had randomly swapped the sub platter.

I was working off the Thorens history site which mentions the introduction as 1972 on the TD160 and TD125mk2. It also implies later production models of the TD125 mk1 had a bearing change from a captive ball but no date for that so that may have been a little earlier. I think I saw 71 somewhere but not sure.

Thorens History (theanalogdept.com)

 

[sonddek]

Thanks - interesting. I seem to recall that there was an earlier turntable that incorporated such a bearing, but that could be false memory.

 

[cre009]

Thanks - interesting. I seem to recall that there was an earlier turntable that incorporated such a bearing, but that could be false memory.

The second patent article mentions the Connoisseur Craftman turntable.

 

[sonddek]

The second patent article mentions the Connoisseur Craftman turntable.

That's the one, cheers.

 

[sktn77a]

On a lighter note, I bought my SME3009/S2, unimproved, from Hamish (Thermac) in early 1970. There were no Linns or Aristons around at the time, so I bought a Thorens TD125 (complete with captive ball bearing). I was determined to rid myself of the Rumble Queen Of All Time (my Garrard SP23 mk2)!

My TD125/3009 gave way to an LP12/Ittok in 1982 and has been with me ever since (well, Trigger's broom has).

 

[Mullardman]

Trollardman?

Unlike your response, my comment was not personal..unless you are claiming that the almighty LP12 has feelings too...

I owned an LP12 for over 20 years. It was of 1993 manufacture, purchased as 'mechanicals only'. I fitted a s/h Valhalla, a Mk1 Akito and a K18. Not long after, I added Lingo 1 and the very last iteration of the Ittok.
(LVIII Mk2, iirc) and a succession of MCs culminating in a DV17D2.
I think I gave the LP12 a chance to shine, but it never grabbed me, or gave me the revelatory experience so many claim. I found it, frankly, boring.
I've sold Linn kit. I've used an LP12 in demos and let people draw their own conclusions. I have heard more LP12s than I care to remember, in various specs, in full active Linn systems and assorted others. None has ever grabbed me. I have friends who have LP12s in various specs. They like them and that's their privelege. I just dont hear the alleged 'magic'.
Clearly the LP 12 in whatever iteration, is not a 'bad' player and FWIW, I love its compact and neat appearance.
I just cannot accept that in any form, it is the performer it is claimed to be.

I am entitled to that opinion.

Nobody is forced to agree and of course people should buy what floats their boat, but IMHO, the LP12, or any LP 12 is not entitled to special consideration, or legendary status any more than any other bit of hi-fi kit.
Yet the whole marketing strategy is based on the constant repetition of a myth which basically states that the LP 12 is the best TT on the planet and anyone who doesn't get that is deaf, or stupid. I've had that shit from Linn dealers and Linn reps.
I'm not buying it.

 

[david ellwood]

I am entitled to that opinion.

unfortunately, the manner with which you shared that opinion came across in a very troll like manner, hence the various responses to what appeared very obvious troll behaviour.

 

[Joe]

unfortunately, the manner with which you shared, that opinion came across in a very troll like manner, hence the various responses to what appeared very obvious troll behaviour.

Bolloxs.... He merely stated that , in his opinion**, the LP12 was a pretty average sounding deck. An opinion he is entitled to .Just because he doesn't go on to elaborate doesn't change the meaning; and just because you don't agree doesn't make it trolling.

** .. before any semantics experts chime in......everything on here is an opinion.....even ones backed by any facts. This is Hifi.

A more Troll-like post you could have pointed to was the one where someone merely posted " Trollardman" , if my grasp of the meaning of Trolling is correct.

( I've had three LP12's in my time )

 

[sonddek]

The abrasion that we see on these threads is the result of several causes working over decades. Linn sensibly sought to communicate that their products were superior. That is righteous pride in the product and a common sense sales strategy. Ivor also proselytised a different way of thinking about how to assess hifi which has had a very beneficial effect since the bad old days of the tedious and less informative measurement-only review. Linn was fabulously successful at this and built up a dedicated following of those of us who loved our music and wanted to justify our eyebrow-raising expenditure. It grew into a snobbery which dealers and hifi press encouraged and fed. I was a massive Linn snob. I sneered at 'lesser' turntables, especially those from Japan. I had been steered into ignorance but it was my own fault for wanting the nice salesman to be righter with each grand I shelled out.

If you spend too much money on this very rewarding fusspot hobby, you need to feel that you made the right choice. You want your junk to be better than other people's junk, otherwise you can feel a bit stupid and the expense can hurt.

So here we are, coming to blows over a hifi brand. Add up what we've all spent over several decades, sprinkle in a bit of human nature and passion about music and design and it's not surprising. I don't see any trolls, just varied opinion and a little bit of admirable cynicism, in the original sense, meaning to behave like a dog to remind the masters not to be too vain.

Keep it up! Passions deserve expression. A cistern contains, a fountain overflows.

 

[Paul Hindle]

Well, let’s face it. The LP12 never earned its legendary reputation because of forums like this and it will never lose it. It doesn’t matter whether you love it or hate it, it ain’t going away any time soon so lots more threads like this to come

 

[Mullardman]

The abrasion that we see on these threads is the result of several causes working over decades. Linn sensibly sought to communicate that their products were superior. That is righteous pride in the product and a common sense sales strategy. Ivor also proselytised a different way of thinking about how to assess hifi which has had a very beneficial effect since the bad old days of the tedious and less informative measurement-only review. Linn was fabulously successful at this and built up a dedicated following of those of us who loved our music and wanted to justify our eyebrow-raising expenditure. It grew into a snobbery which dealers and hifi press encouraged and fed. I was a massive Linn snob. I sneered at 'lesser' turntables, especially those from Japan. I had been steered into ignorance but it was my own fault for wanting the nice salesman to be righter with each grand I shelled out.

If you spend too much money on this very rewarding fusspot hobby, you need to feel that you made the right choice. You want your junk to be better than other people's junk, otherwise you can feel a bit stupid and the expense can hurt.

So here we are, coming to blows over a hifi brand. Add up what we've all spent over several decades, sprinkle in a bit of human nature and passion about music and design and it's not surprising. I don't see any trolls, just varied opinion and a little bit of admirable cynicism, in the original sense, meaning to behave like a dog to remind the masters not to be too vain.

Keep it up! Passions deserve expression. A cistern contains, a fountain overflows.

An excellent post. In particular you have made a better fist than I did of elucidating the 'brand loyalty' aspect of the debate and pointing to the fact that the other side of brand loyalty can manifest as a kind of fanaticism which reacts very badly to any form of criticism. This because criticism can challenge the psychological basis of the decision to invest. Nobody likes being made to confront the possibility that they might have spent lots of money pursuing a myth.
Obviously many people buy kit because they genuinely like the sound, but others can get sucked in ( as I did ) by the mythology. 'Surely this must be a great bit of kit because everyone says it is.....' It took me a long time to admit to myself that the fault was not with my hearing, but with my false expectations. I was sucked in by a slightly more sophisticated form of the mythology which has many believing that B&O, or Bose, for e.g., are 'the best you can get', simply because the herd repeat the myth.
It's a decent player, among a raft of other decent players. It isn't magic, and even way back it wasn't either revolutionary or especially innovative. It was, and remains, a triumph of marketing.

 

[Locheeboy]

As said above, the Linn was/is a "pretty average sounding deck" which was why I chose a Fons CQ30, back then, instead of the Linn. It was a much better deck , all round.
Tiefenbrun did NOT design NOR develop the Sondek. he was NOT an engineer. His expertise lay in business/advertising (which he was very good at). His dad redesigned a small part of the point bearing (which cause a lot of problems with early Linns) to avoid litigation. His dad's cousin was one of the judges who sat on the panel of the Henderson petition , aye the one the Tiefenbruns won.
A linn (from the Gaelic) is "a place at the foot of a waterfall".

 

[TheDecameron]

The abrasion that we see on these threads is the result of several causes working over decades. Linn sensibly sought to communicate that their products were superior. That is righteous pride in the product and a common sense sales strategy. Ivor also proselytised a different way of thinking about how to assess hifi which has had a very beneficial effect since the bad old days of the tedious and less informative measurement-only review. Linn was fabulously successful at this and built up a dedicated following of those of us who loved our music and wanted to justify our eyebrow-raising expenditure. It grew into a snobbery which dealers and hifi press encouraged and fed. I was a massive Linn snob. I sneered at 'lesser' turntables, especially those from Japan. I had been steered into ignorance but it was my own fault for wanting the nice salesman to be righter with each grand I shelled out.

If you spend too much money on this very rewarding fusspot hobby, you need to feel that you made the right choice. You want your junk to be better than other people's junk, otherwise you can feel a bit stupid and the expense can hurt.

So here we are, coming to blows over a hifi brand. Add up what we've all spent over several decades, sprinkle in a bit of human nature and passion about music and design and it's not surprising. I don't see any trolls, just varied opinion and a little bit of admirable cynicism, in the original sense, meaning to behave like a dog to remind the masters not to be too vain.

Keep it up! Passions deserve expression. A cistern contains, a fountain overflows.

That’s a nice summation. It was and is a really good product and supremely well marketed and for a tiny company in Glasgow comprising of a immigrant precision engineer and an ambitious son, to take on a global market and rise to the surface is truly remarkable. It’s worth listening to Ivor’s business talks and interviews on YouTube.

I didn’t know anyone who had one in the mid 80s but I developed the impression it was ‘the best’ presumably from reading magazine articles which is testament to the subliminal nature of marketing. As already mentioned I bought an old one and was delighted and only waited a few weeks before going into Russ Andrews High Fidelity and buying a brand new one. After that it was how do I afford a better arm, cart etc.

One day a friend brought another young guy from his work round because he’d heard I was into Hifi. The chap said to me while we were looking at the LP12 in my system, “I’ve got a Roxan Xerxes”. I couldn’t understand it, why on earth would anyone want to do that? I looked at him as if he had horns. The interesting thing is- I had never actually heard a Xerxes. That’s how good the Linn commercial operation was.
Was I hoodwinked? Certainly not, I got so much pleasure from the thing and trusted the brand- just as I would with choice of car, gas boiler or camera. Could I/ should have looked elsewhere? Well maybe but you could say the same about your marriage!

 

[per-Sony-fied]

If you spend too much money on this very rewarding fusspot hobby, you need to feel that you made the right choice. You want your junk to be better than other people's junk, otherwise you can feel a bit stupid and the expense can hurt.

Keep it up! Passions deserve expression. A cistern contains, a fountain overflows.

Well put, made me laugh mind you tho' it kinda reminds me how I put all my gear together & arrived at my decision. Hoping it would be good quality junk, just not the best quality junk one hears & maybe not the best synergistic junk either.

 

[Mr Pig]

I think the whole bearing/court case debate is irrelevant. Bottom line is that both Linn and Ariston went on to develop essentially the same turntable. Linn got it right and Ariston did not.

You can argue all you like about whether this or that turntable is better but it's pointless as you've already lost. The LP12 is still in production, still supported and still relevant fifty years later. It doesn't matter what you subjectively preferred or thought was prettier forty years ago. The Linn was the better all round package which is the main reason it is still here.

 

[per-Sony-fied]

How closely did the "competition" (Ariston/Thorens) spindle/bearing resemble Linn's in dimensions/manufacture rather than concept?