Cereal Killer
432
That's not really an option anymore, wish it was though 
Linn vs. Naim
- Thread starter LOTUS HIFI
- Start date
sq225917
Bit of this, bit of that
Ynwan, you don't see the upgrade bug associated with any manufacturer?
Seriously.
How about this then.
A series of pre- amplifiers that achieve greater incremental sound quality even though they are all based, apart from top model, on the same circuit, more or less. Then alongside these are a a range of power supplies that follow a similar trajectory and allow you to upgrade by keeping your investment in cd player, pre, power etc and upgrading the associated power supply.
The entire Naim product ethos is built around the process of upgrading a base component towards a higher specification component by the addition of additional bits. I've never seen a more vertically integrated product offering from any company outside of the PC market.
To use your car analogy, it's like being able to re use the running gear of your Fiat in your Ferrari- should you choose to follow the entire upgrade path.
Seriously.
How about this then.
A series of pre- amplifiers that achieve greater incremental sound quality even though they are all based, apart from top model, on the same circuit, more or less. Then alongside these are a a range of power supplies that follow a similar trajectory and allow you to upgrade by keeping your investment in cd player, pre, power etc and upgrading the associated power supply.
The entire Naim product ethos is built around the process of upgrading a base component towards a higher specification component by the addition of additional bits. I've never seen a more vertically integrated product offering from any company outside of the PC market.
To use your car analogy, it's like being able to re use the running gear of your Fiat in your Ferrari- should you choose to follow the entire upgrade path.
Hook
Blackbeard's former bo'sun.
Both Linn and Naim make fine audio components. A great sounding hi-fi setup can be built using either or both.
And both have upgrade paths. But isn't it up to the buyer, and not the manufacturer, to determine what is affordable and/or appropriate? To portray either Naim or Linn as evil or manipulative is just another way of abdicating responsibility for individual purchasing decisions. Are we really so weak-willed? I don't think so. I think most of us have a pretty good grasp on what represents VFM in our own personal situations. The issue is that no two of us share the exact same situation or perspective, and yet we are very quick to judge one another.
The stereotypes often cited here, of both buyer and manufacturer, are simply that...stereotypes. I admit, it can often be comical to paint with a broad brush, but hopefully most of us understand it is all in good fun, and not necessarily real-world accurate.
Hook
And both have upgrade paths. But isn't it up to the buyer, and not the manufacturer, to determine what is affordable and/or appropriate? To portray either Naim or Linn as evil or manipulative is just another way of abdicating responsibility for individual purchasing decisions. Are we really so weak-willed? I don't think so. I think most of us have a pretty good grasp on what represents VFM in our own personal situations. The issue is that no two of us share the exact same situation or perspective, and yet we are very quick to judge one another.
The stereotypes often cited here, of both buyer and manufacturer, are simply that...stereotypes. I admit, it can often be comical to paint with a broad brush, but hopefully most of us understand it is all in good fun, and not necessarily real-world accurate.
Hook
YNWOAN
100% Analogue
Yes, of course I see the upgrade path - but no one is 'compelled' to tread that path except by their own psyche; we (in theory) have free choice after all.
Yes indeed, my own feelings on the matter precisely. However, in response to your last question, I'm afraid the answer, for many, would appear to be 'yes'.
Every manufacturer over a certain size offers a range of designs, usually based on the same design principles and priced in an ascending order (even the self proclaimed armchair warrior of 'anti-slurp' does) - so what? If people are so weak willed that they feel compelled to continually upgrade, then they should spend a bit more time considering their own aspirations/motivations rather than seeking out scapegoats IMHO.
______________________
Now where has that thread about all pfm threads starting to sound the same gone - I'm beginning to see his point (I've certainly read this thread a number of times before)!
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
One reason I would suggest, which will raise heckles because it is a Linn marketing mantra is this: to my ear Linn gear seems to prioritise musical qualities (tune and rhythm) above sound qualities (bass extension, imaging, flat response and tone). Therefore it appeals to those who want to forget about gear and just enjoy the basic musical qualities. I recently switched from Naim amps to Linn amps. The sound is less impressive, but I don't find myself thinking about the sound, or the gear, while I'm enjoying music. That quality of sounding less impressive, but just getting the gear out of the way of the music may be why there is less moaning and upgraditis in the Linn forum: people there are more content and musically satisfied.
I'm not suggesting that Linn gear is more musically satisfying than other non-Naim gear btw, just that it's often more mollifying than the typical Naim sound.
Cue flamewar.
sq225917
Bit of this, bit of that
I think many people really are that weak willed, and they take the path of least resistance, (I'd be out of a job if they didn't). If you have the following it's bound to happen.
1. Availability of upgrades.
2. Marketing that says upgrades in]s the way.
3. Happy customers saying it's the way.
4. FUD regarding other upgrade options- ie replace it all with other brand.
5. Customer with money in his pocket
Naim have all of that in place, it's simple human nature that people should choose to take the option that appears least risky. In comparison, jumping to Avondale appears significantly more risky than the Naim upgrade path. Consequently Les's pitch includes several themes to reduce this.
It's the retention of the originally purchased component that sets Naim aside from most upgrades out there, though increasingly other brands are following suit.
1. Availability of upgrades.
2. Marketing that says upgrades in]s the way.
3. Happy customers saying it's the way.
4. FUD regarding other upgrade options- ie replace it all with other brand.
5. Customer with money in his pocket
Naim have all of that in place, it's simple human nature that people should choose to take the option that appears least risky. In comparison, jumping to Avondale appears significantly more risky than the Naim upgrade path. Consequently Les's pitch includes several themes to reduce this.
It's the retention of the originally purchased component that sets Naim aside from most upgrades out there, though increasingly other brands are following suit.
Nik
pfm Member
You've pretty much defined "musicality" there, but didn't Naim also claim to have that compared with the competition (before Linn made amps, of course)? Can I ask which Naims you had and which Linns you now have?
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
Agreed, but I think my point is that Linn concentrate harder on "musicality" and less on "impressive sound" than Naim. I would guess that this makes Naim more likely to win a one hour shoot-out, and be bought by less experienced shoppers. The more laid-back, and to my ear, more musical Linn sound may be easier to live with in the long run once one tires of the thrill of impressive sound effects and wants to follow, for example, complex harmonies.
Sure, my last Naim amps were olive 82/HiCap/250 and I now use a KK and a pair of activated 5125's. Although the new prices of my Linn amps would somewhat exceed the new prices of my previous Naim setup, I originally bought the Naim amps new, whereas I bought the Linn stuff used, so the price difference wasn't much. Also, since the system is now active, it's a pretty unfair comparison, but I still think that my experience may be relevant to the respective signature sounds of Linn and Naim, having listened to many Linn and Naim setups over the years.
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
Nik
pfm Member
That's my opinion too, except for the "one hour" bit. It's never taken more than a couple of minutes in my case to realise that I was enjoying the music so much more through Linns, even the first LK1-LK2 (vs 32-250). Naims always sound harsh and spitty to me.
IMO the LK1, LK2, and LK280 were bargains that I could buy new. That stopped with the Kairn and Klout, which I bought used and still have. I doubt that I'll ever be able to justify buying any of the Klimax range, even used, but I'm glad to hear that the music-first idea is still present and correct. Thanks for the info
darrylfunk
Banned
'musicality' has nothing to do with the gear it's played through in many senses.
you can write musicality into a piece of music or not.
it doesn't matter which amp you use it will still be in the music (or not)
regards
darryl.
you can write musicality into a piece of music or not.
it doesn't matter which amp you use it will still be in the music (or not)
regards
darryl.
i_should_coco
I am weasel
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
Whether the music demands it or not.
Good reproduction of music always demands good resolution of tunes and rhythms. If a recording contains no tunes and no rhythms then it contains no music. Discuss ;-)
i_should_coco
I am weasel
Oh, right. Good as opposed to over-hyped at the expense of everything else? So is that the *only* thing good music reproduction needs? Evrything else it irrelevant?
I guess that's why some many Linn/Naim owners listen exclusively to prog. rock. ;-)
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
I said without tune and rhythm there is no music. Think of it like "without bread and filling there is no sandwich". That doesn't stop you adding lemon juice and poppy seeds. OTOH, as long as there's filling between the bread, it's a sandwich, no matter how gopping it tastes.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-12654118
i_should_coco
I am weasel
I guess I just don't understand the obsession about PRAT at the expense of everything else and the bollocks about it being a "musical" quality and somehow more fundamental. Frankly, I see it as a marketing scam, a virtue dreamt up to excuse poor reproduction in other areas. Not so true these days, but way back when...
Cereal Killer
432
who agrees that Linn is now fully round earth and Naim is still as flat as a supermodels breasts