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Linn LP12s – Fire away!

Sounds very strange to me. The Linn obviously didn´t like what it was sitting on. A Technics shouldn´t be bass light c/w a Linn. Quite the opposite I´d say. Just shows what the Cirkus was all about.
 
Chris said:
Sounds very strange to me. The Linn obviously didn´t like what it was sitting on. A Technics shouldn´t be bass light c/w a Linn. Quite the opposite I´d say. Just shows what the Cirkus was all about.
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No matter how strange it seems, there is no problem to diagnose here. My LP12 is banging away like a champ in my bedroom and my Technics deck is doing likewise in my living room. Two 'Total Systems' that boogie like phuk? There is no problem.

For the record, my LP12 had been sitting on a Mana wall shelf (at phase 4) since day one until I moved it into my bedroom about two months ago or so. Considering all I've just said about how particular equipment works as part of a particular system which is itself part of a larger particular system once you take into account the room and that each system + room will generate its own unique sound presentation as a whole, I don't believe you've correctly characterised things here. It's not simply a case of a suspended deck versus a solid deck, or comparing a Technics deck with a Linn deck in terms of bottom end. In my case, it's about the particular Total System (system + room) in question, and in that Total System in question, my Technics deck is bass-lite relative to my LP12, at least at a frequency that's important in the context of my room. Fwiw, I tried using a number of carts on both decks and the result was the same: my Technics deck is bass-lite relative to my LP12.

Fwiw, I've never tried a Cirkus bearing on my LP12 (and therefore, never as part of my LP12 Total System) so there's nothing I can say about it other than I know it exists. If you use one in your LP12 and you're happy with how your Total System works then that's excellent. That's what we all want :)
 
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windhoek said:
No matter how strange it seems, there is no problem to diagnose here. My LP12 is banging away like a champ in my bedroom and my Technics deck is doing likewise in my living room. Two 'Total Systems' that boogie like phuk? There is no problem.

For the record, my LP12 had been sitting on a Mana wall shelf (at phase 4) since day one until I moved it into my bedroom about two months ago or so. Considering all I've just said about how particular equipment works as part of a particular system which is itself part of a larger particular system once you take into account the room and that each system + room will generate its own unique sound presentation as a whole, I don't believe you've correctly characterised things here. It's not simply a case of a suspended deck versus a solid deck, or comparing a Technics deck with a Linn deck in terms of bottom end. In my case, it's about the particular Total System (system + room) in question, and in that Total System in question, my Technics deck is bass-lite relative to my LP12, at least at a frequency that's important in the context of my room. Fwiw, I tried using a number of the carts on both decks and the result was the same: my Technics deck is bass-lite relative to my LP12.

Fwiw, I've never tried a Cirkus bearing on my LP12 (and therefore, never as part of my LP12 Total System) so there's nothing I can say about it other than I know it exists. If you use one in your LP12 and you're happy with how your Total System works then that's excellent. That's what we all want :)
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This doesn't seem strange to me, though comparing a pre-Cirkus LP12 to a current Technics may be a bit apples-and-pears. It seems clear that the bass bloom on the old LP12 plus your room plus Tannoys was just too much - not too surprising. You could have tried changing to a more neutral spec on the LP12, but you moved instead to a more neutral TT, and you are happy with the result. As you say, if it works, it works.
 
windhoek said:
that system operates within the confines of a room, by which I mean room geometry and physical dimensions, layout and furnishings, not to mention organic occupancy at any given time, etc.
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windhoek said:
I can make or break a system simply by moving one of the speakers a little, or by moving the furniture around
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You seem to realize that the room and how the "system" is set up, speakers location, seat location, room treatment, is quintessential to getting great stereo sound results. Yet you seem to be swapping boxes a lot, which is often irrelevant, or yielding minimal changes at best, or was the swapping before you finally realized the room was the important aspect? From reading your extensive post, I did not see any mention on what you did to your listening space to get it to play to your satisfaction.

So many people lost at sea in this thread, spending a lot of money on "upgrades" in the quest to reach a state of music reproduction, or correcting issues that have nothing to do with the "gears".

Nothing wrong with getting perfect a little bit more perfect, off course, or nothing wrong with falling in love with tinkering, even it has nothing to do with getting great music at home, nothing wrong either with manufacturer "improving" a product by selling "updates", they have to make a leaving to keep existing.

I just wish that every one here is having a good time with whatever they are doing, or else it is a little sad.

As for the LP12, in any guise or configuration, they all play fantastic music, if not broken, and if someone has an issue listening and enjoying music playing records on a LP12, it is not the deck who is the issue.
 
Cote Dazur said:
You seem to realize that the room and how the "system" is set up, speakers location, seat location, room treatment, is quintessential to getting great stereo sound results. Yet you seem to be swapping boxes a lot, which is often irrelevant, or yielding minimal changes at best, or was the swapping before you finally realized the room was the important aspect? From reading your extensive post, I did not see any mention on what you did to your listening space to get it to play to your satisfaction.

So many people lost at sea in this thread, spending a lot of money on "upgrades" in the quest to reach a state of music reproduction, or correcting issues that have nothing to do with the "gears".

Nothing wrong with getting perfect a little bit more perfect, off course, or nothing wrong with falling in love with tinkering, even it has nothing to do with getting great music at home, nothing wrong either with manufacturer "improving" a product by selling "updates", they have to make a leaving to keep existing.

I just wish that every one here is having a good time with whatever they are doing, or else it is a little sad.

As for the LP12, in any guise or configuration, they all play fantastic music, if not broken, and if someone has an issue listening and enjoying music playing records on a LP12, it is not the deck who is the issue.
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I used to be a box swapper for sure, as my list suggests (a list that doesn't touch on the digital side of things in the slightest), but things have been fairly stable for the last five years or so after I bought my Kralk Audio BC-30s. Obviously that changed when I bought my Tannoys but there's no way I'll be parting with those speakers. They'll see me out... barring a court order or something like that!

As for my room, I've got some GIK Acoustic room treatment stuff in place. As you say, I could have tried other LP12 tweaks to see where that would have gotten me. But as it is, I bought a Technics deck, albeit impulsively, and that solved everything - it even solved the unforeseen matter of having a proper system in my bedroom as I now have the best of both worlds.

I agree, it's all about enjoying music and if it isn't working, then I know from experience that that's an unhappy place to be.
 
windhoek said:
Okay, time to join this thread for realz.

Part 1: My LP12

I’ve got a modified pre-Cirkus LP12: Rosewood plinth; Stack Audio Tenor subchassis and top plate; stripped Rega RB300 tonearm (rewired by Johnnie @ Audio Origami) with tungsten counterweight and Rega Exact cart; arm board from circa 2013; lacquer-free platter with a grubby looking rim; ancient lid, bereft of bumpers; DIY Norton PSU; Audio Origami bearing oil.

The deck wasn’t thus when I bought it from Mr Pig in 2013. The specification then was: Rosewood plinth; Linn subchassis and top plate; stripped Rega RB300 tonearm (factory wired) with tungsten counterweight, no cart; arm board from circa 2013; lacquer-free platter with a shiny looking rim; ancient lid, bereft of bumpers; Avondale TAPS; Audio Origami bearing oil.

For reference, the deck I’d previously owned was a Project 6 Perspex, a £1,000+ turntable that was probably halfway up the Project turntable range; I’ve no idea where it would sit nowadays.

My vinyl playback system at the time was as follows: LP12 > Trichord Dino phono stage with Dino+ PSU > Naim Nait XS > Linn Kans (early mk2). I was still a frequent box swapper back then so it wasn’t long before that system changed, and then changed, and then changed again. I don’t think there’s any point in trying piece together each and every single system that came out of all the changes that took place between then and now, so instead, here’s a list of all the different equipment that’s been part of my ‘LP12 system’ at one point or another over the last nine years or so, however briefly (very briefly in some cases):

Amplification

- Marantz NR-1510 AVR (preamp) + Naim NAP100 (poweramp)
- Naim Nait XS
- Rega IO
- Teddy Pardo Pre1 + MB100 monoblocks
- Teddy Pardo i80a

Phono Stages

- Marantz NR-1510 AVR (on-board phono stage)
- Rega Aria (mk2)
- Rega IO (on-board phono stage)
- Teddy Pardo PHN1
- Trichord Dino phono stage with Dino+ PSU

Speakers

- Kralk Audio BC-30 bookshelf speakers
- Linn Kans (early mk1)
- Linn Kans (early mk2)
- Martin Logan Clarity ESL
- Naim IBL
- Tannoy Legacy Eaton

For reference, the most enduring system was as follows: LP12 > Trichord Dino phono stage with Dino+ PSU > Teddy Pardo i80a > Kralk Audio BC-30 bookshelf speakers (speakers which are very similar in size and sound to Linn Kans, except the earliest iteration of Kans which are uniquely squawky). I reckon that system was in place for around five years and for good reason: it was a setup that allowed me to enjoy pretty much my entire record collection, even if it fell down a bit when it came to playing classical records. Plus, it was extremely neighbour-friendly thanks to those high boogie bass-lite speakers.

I actually bettered this system towards the end of 2020, the year of covid, when I tried out replacing my Teddy Pardo amp with a preamp-poweramp combo: Marantz NR-1510 AVR (preamp) + Naim NAP100 (poweramp). I don’t know how or why but for some reason, this combo brought much more boogie out of the BC-30s than the TP amp did; my guess is that the NAP was more harmonious in some way than the power section of the TP amp. Like I say, I don’t know. Anyway, I reckon this vinyl playback system could easily have lasted for another five or six years had I not gone crazy and bought a pair of Tannoy Legacy Eatons around the start of 2021, the second year of covid.

Why was that crazy, you might ask? The Tannoys could put out far more bass than my room could naturally handle. And so it wasn’t long before I found myself playing the same well-mastered records over and over as most of the modern records in my collection sounded somewhere between less than average and decidedly unlistenable. In a nutshell: modern records + LP12 + Tannoys + living room = bad news for vinyl playback, unless we’re talking about records that sound great on any system. I can’t remember when I realised this about my LP12-Tannoy combo, but that was the outcome all the same.

If the Tannoys were the problem in this setup then a Technics 1210GR was the solution. I bought one earlier this year after falling down a pink fish rabbit hole where I ultimately pulled the trigger for no other reason than I’d fallen down a pink fish rabbit hole. You lot were talking lots and lots about Technics decks and so all of a sudden, I had to have one. In fairness, I was stuck in the house for ten days straight having finally caught covid and so I ended up reading just about every pink fish thread going at the time, including those about Technics decks where the promise of speed stability and whatnot was most alluring.

It turned out to be an inspired decision. Not only could the thing boogie, I could finally play all those modern records again. Just as the phat-bottomed LP12 was a perfect match for my BC-30s, so too was the Technics deck with the Tannoys. With no bloom in sight, my 1210GR + Tannoys are a match made in living room heaven. Suffice to say, it didn’t take long before my LP12 became surplus to requirements. And it’s not because my LP12 is a bad deck or that the Technics is a superior deck: it’s just that the Technics deck + modern records + Tannoys + room = great news for vinyl playback without caveat or question.

So what happened to my LP12? It’s currently in my bedroom where it boogies like phuk with a Rega IO amplifier (on-board phono stage in use) and a pair of wall-mounted Kralk Audio BC-30 bookshelf speakers; the same ones that were previously in my living room. As before, these Kan-like speakers partner extremely well with the phat-bottomed LP12. This system doesn’t sound great at all, I don’t think, but somehow, it just draws you in and gets you involved every time you play a record. It’s just really, really enjoyable.

Apart from the fact that my Technics deck was a better match for my Tannoys, the other reason my LP12 ended up in the bedroom is that I decided to install a proper system in there so that I could have somewhere cool to enjoy music during the hottest spells of summer: my living room faces south west or something like that and so once those bricks at the front of the tenement warm up, well my living becomes unbearably hot. I’m not kidding, it’s like an oven!

So that’s where I’m at with my LP12. Looking back, did I make the right decision in replacing my Project deck with an LP12? Yes! That was my first impression at the time and it remains my view now as well. The crazy thing is, I was going to offer it to mate on the cheap not long after I bought that Technics deck as I was sure I’d never need or want to use it again. But my decision to drop it into my bedroom system was just as inspired as was my decision to buy the Technics deck so no, it won’t be getting sold to a mate on the cheap. To be clear, it won’t be getting sold to anyone anytime soon, period!

Part 2: LP12 Opinions and stuff

What I would say about upgrades, both Linn and third-party, is that the LP12 is like a tree: the original deck is the trunk, major upgrades are the main branches, minor upgrades are the smaller branches and the finer upgrades are the leaves; I suppose you could say that the design, development and history of the deck are the roots, going all the way back to Ariston and, in a broader sense, to the days of the gramophone, and even going right back to the earliest point at which sound was first captured and reproduced, however crudely. And perhaps you could take this tree analogy further by saying that the seeds of that first tree have long since fallen and taken root and that there are now a number of trees out there belonging to the LP12 family, many rooted firmly in Eaglesham while others can be found dotted up and down across the country.

Moreover, although Linn and third-party upgrades may well have their own separate branches (or trees), as in real life however, the various branches of a tree (or trees) often overlap and so some third-party branches will be adjacent and quite similar to some Linn branches while others will naturally be farther away and correspondingly dissimilar; indeed, I think it’s safe to say there’s even be a fair bit of distance and dissimilarity between the various Linn branches.

All of which is to say that although there are now an almost infinite number of ways in which an LP12 can be cobbled together, with so many options for each of its constituent parts, official or otherwise, every LP12 in existence remains part of the LP12 tree (or family of trees) all the same. There is something about each one that identifies it as being an LP12, and I’m not talking about the label on the lid. Even an LP12 fully comprised of third-party parts belongs on the tree or, at the very least, conceptually speaking, that is, on a tree that once upon a time was a seed that fell from the original LP12 tree. Trees, branches, leaves and roots? They’re all connected!

So there we have it. That’s my take on why an LP12 is an LP12, even when it’s not an LP12. As for how upgrades work in reality, the best I can say there is that if it sounds good it is good.

Bearing in mind that relying on memory as a reference point as to whether a particular change turns out to be an upgrade is a mental proposition if ever there was, greater forces are always at work in determining whether that turns out to be the case. Remember: upgrades are only upgrades if they’re upgrades - some upgrades can turn out to be positively downgrading!

It seems to me that: a) you can’t isolate a single part of an LP12 and say this part will sound like this when that part doesn’t do anything until it’s part of an assembly of parts that work together as a totality, that is, an LP12; b) that LP12 is part of a system that works as a totality itself, and; c) that system operates within the confines of a room, by which I mean room geometry and physical dimensions, layout and furnishings, not to mention organic occupancy at any given time, etc. This complete ‘Total System’ will determine how you hear what you hear and whether a given change turns out to be an upgrade, despite what anyone else has to say about it with regards to opinion, prediction or experience. In other words, when you change one thing you change everything and so if you change even a single part on of LP12 you change how the whole thing works, the room, the system, the lot.

Indeed, when you accept that a system is not just the gear, it's the gear plus room, I think it's safe to say that arguments about LP12 versus this or that deck are utterly pointless and futile. Considering that each Total System (room + system) is about as unique as a snowflake, the only real thing one can say about this deck or that deck, or any piece of kit for that matter, is that this is how it works in a given Total System. There may well be similarities between what some people get from the same equipment, but you won't know for sure what you'll get until you plumb something in and give it a go.

It took me a long time to realise that how stuff sounds on demo in a dealer's showroom, or even in a demo room at a hi-fi show has little bearing on it will sound once I get it home. I can make or break a system simply by moving one of the speakers a little, or by moving the furniture around. Music + system + room + organic matter? It's all connected. And that's not even counting mood, time of day, state of hunger, and so on.

In conclusion, buy an LP12, don't buy an LP12. Keep your LP12, get rid of your LP12. Change your LP12, don't change your LP12. Replace your LP12, don't replace your LP12. Write about your LP12, don't write about your LP12. All of the above is okay. Just please don't say there's a right way and a wrong way. If it sounds good, it is good, and if that's the case then that's the right way for you at that time. If it doesn't sound good, or if it stops sounding good, then it's probably time to try a different way, whatever way that other way turns out to be. Either way, you decide!
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Great article, thanks for sharing your thoughts
 
windhoek said:
Okay, time to join this thread for realz.

Part 1: My LP12

I’ve got a modified pre-Cirkus LP12...

... here’s a list of all the different equipment that’s been part of my ‘LP12 system’ at one point or another over the last nine years or so, however briefly (very briefly in some cases):

Amplification

- Marantz NR-1510 AVR (preamp) + Naim NAP100 (poweramp)
- Naim Nait XS
- Rega IO
- Teddy Pardo Pre1 + MB100 monoblocks
- Teddy Pardo i80a

Phono Stages

- Marantz NR-1510 AVR (on-board phono stage)
- Rega Aria (mk2)
- Rega IO (on-board phono stage)
- Teddy Pardo PHN1
- Trichord Dino phono stage with Dino+ PSU

Speakers

- ATC SCM7 (mk1)
- ATC SCM7 (mk3)
- ATC SCM11 (mk2)
- Kralk Audio BC-30
- Linn Kans (early mk1)
- Linn Kans (early mk2)
- Martin Logan Clarity ESL
- Naim IBL
- Tannoy Legacy Eaton
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Oh, I totally forgot about the ATC speakers I bought once upon a time so I've quickly added them to the list before the option to edit my post passes. I really was a mad box swapper lol

- ATC SCM7 (mk1)
- ATC SCM7 (mk3)
- ATC SCM11 (mk2)
 
While we have so may old hands at upgrades in one place, can I pick the collective brain please?

In trying to explain to an LP12- newbie about the options, I realised again just how messy it all looks. The general biases to Front End First and balanced Systems Always may compete a bit, but I suspect we would all say that some compromise between the two is sensible.

What else do we agree on, and where is there no consensus at all?

It probably makes this simpler if we ask people to think of greater fidelity (as long as that is consistent with musical enjoyment of course) rather than only thinking of their favourite sound in a 100% open and subjective sense. With that in mind, I tried scoring all the upgrades I have come across, with 1 for the biggest and 5 for 'it's probably an upgrade but'. My first stab looks like this: -

Aubible Fidelity Upgrade Score 1-5
Pre-Cirkus to Cirkus bearing 1
Cirkus bearing to Karousel 2
Valhall-era sub-chassis to Kore 2
Kore sub-chassis to Keel 4
Valhall-era sub-chassis to 3rd party sub-chassis
Basik PS to Valhalla 2
Valhalla to Lingo 1 PS 2
Lingo 1 to Lingo 4 PS 2
Lingo 4 PS to Radikal 1 4
Radikal 1 to Radikal 2 5
Valhalla to Naim Armageddon 2
Majik to Lingo 4 PS 2
Basik/ Basik+ to Ittok 2
Basik/ Basik+ arm to Akito 4
Basik/ Basik+ am to Akito 3B 2
Basik/ Basik+ arm to Ekos 1 1
Ittok to Ekos SE 4
Akito 3B to Ekos SE 4
Ekos 1 to Ekos SE 5
Ittok to Naim Aro
Akito to Naim Aro
Naim phono boards to Prefix 3
Naim phono boards to Linto 4
Naim phono boards to Stageline 4
Prefix to Superline 3
Linto to Naim Superline 2
Linto to Uforik 2
Linto to Urika 1
Linto to Urika 2
Base - naked or hardboard to current Solid base 5
Base - naked or hardboard to current Trampolin 2
Base - naked or hardboard to 3rd party baseboard
Old Linn top plate to new Linn top plate
Old Linn top plate to 3rd party top plate
Old Linn plinth to Booplinth
Old Linn plinth to any other 3rd party plinth

1 is a huge upgrade, 5 is probably audible but…

How many of those look massively wrong? And can people help with filling in some of the blanks?
 
Charlie_1 said:
I view the early 80s LP12 as part of a system that created a more balanced sound when partnered with Naim chrome bumper amps, NAC A4 cable, and Kan 1 speakers. Not heard Briks or Saras of that period but assume they worked equally well. I'm not saying the overall effect was neutral but it did help even things out.

Linn obviously develop their LP12 components today using their amps and speakers but the deck is more neutral these days so there's more flexibility in terms of building a balanced sounding system.
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Yet I ditched my "80's" Klimax of the day LP12 which consisted of Rosewood deck, Ekos, Lingo, Troika for a Rega P10 as there was absolutely no comparison of which worked better, -more balanced, uncolored, musical & in tune- and simply breath new life into my Chrome Bumper Naim system for all types of recordings from original first press Jazz LP's right up to the current/modern pressings. So I for one personally don't understand the whole "80s LP12 as part of a system that created a more balanced sound when partnered with Naim chrome bumper" statement. A better, more in tune front end is simply a better front end and any system will benefit from it.
 
NickofWimbledon said:
In trying to explain to an LP12- newbie about the options...
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Forget it. There are too many permutations and variables. I think you're better to just buy a deck on price and condition then see what, if anything, you don't like about it. Investigate the changes that might address the relevant issues and take it from there.

Don't fall for the nonsense that you need to keep upgrading the deck to be happy. Linn insisted the LP12 was the best turntable in the world back when it had none of the bank account frightening upgrades available today and thousands of users were perfectly happy with it. If you get sucked into the upgrade mill the only person who will be content is your dealer.

How many of those look massively wrong?
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The entire premise in my opinion. It assumes all upgrades are linear and not interdependent. Hi-Fi is always a balance of virtues and sins, the LP12 is no different. There are no absolute rights and wrongs, just what you personally like or do not.
 
tpetsch said:
Yet I ditched my "80's" Klimax of the day LP12 which consisted of Rosewood deck, Ekos, Lingo, Troika for a Rega P10 as there was absolutely no comparison of which worked better, -more balanced, uncolored, musical & in tune- and simply breath new life into my Chrome Bumper Naim system for all types of recordings from original first press Jazz LP's right up to the current/modern pressings. So I for one personally don't understand the whole "80s LP12 as part of a system that created a more balanced sound when partnered with Naim chrome bumper" statement. A better, more in tune front end is simply a better front end and any system will benefit from it.
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Don't disagree with you. I'm just saying that the old 80s deck was aided by CB amps and a speaker like the Kan to help balance things out more. Something like 42/110/NACA4/Kans worked really well together with a Valhalla/Ittok deck of the same period.
 
Mr Pig said:
Just stay away from sheep forums. That one called Lenjerko or whatever it is. Just ignore anyone who says the LP12 is the best turntable in the world and you'll be fine.

All I can say is that I've used them for thirty five years. I've heard and tried other turntables but the LP12 is the best set of compromises I've found. I'm happy with it. Not to say it's perfect in any way, it isn't, but it does play music.
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What a arrogant thing to say, stay away from the Lejonklou site? God forbid someone reads an alternative viewpoint on another site and comes to their own conclusions, next you'll say stay away from book lernin. ..I don't agree with 100% of what they talk about either, just like any other site, but isn't that also the site you visited several months ago spouting some trash across a dozen posts you simply couldn't back up? And when you were asked politely what criteria you use to measure your findings you instantly calmed up & left the forum never to post again. Did they hurt your feelings over there? ..BTW, they too happen to be a pro Linn site yet still open minded, members are encouraged to post actual video A/B comparisons to back up their findings which many find both interesting and informative, unlike over here where Mr. Pig says this is better than that just because he says it is, so it is, followed up by several self-serving "Likes"..
 
windhoek said:
Ah, I just realised I was probably just following in your footsteps, as you had an LP12 and Technics deck well before I did :)

Here's to having two decks - cheers :D
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Yeah its great having a DD and belt drive.Have to say my 1210 with stock arm and a AT95 ML has given 31 years flawless service and so nice with the Aria 3 I can change from MM to MC at a press of a button.Love playing my 12 " House - Techno singles on the Technics their spiritual home.
Really great piece you posted must have taken you a while drafting it.
Hope all is well with you Derek
Best Wishes Ian :)
 
I agree that Techno is the spiritual home of the Technics, but so is most else. I got fed up with warbling violins, cellos, violas, harps. But I only had a Cirkus/Lingo at best and probably preferred Valhalla, apart from the absolute pain of playing 45rpm Techno.
 
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