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Linn LP12s – Fire away!

The idea that some lps sound better than others On certain flavours of lp12 is a concept I have experienced often in my history of lp12 ownership. It is also a recurring theme on forums such as this. There is one lp I remember sounding absolutely sh*te on any lp12 I tried it on right from the 1980s till now. It was Peter Gabriel’s first album. Since I’ve gone L4/Karousel/Kore I’ve gone back over pretty much all of those lps I placed In this category and without fail, they all sound great now. I’ve just this minute interrupted my nightly listen to put on PG1 just to prove this to myself again. Modern love is now a gem. Excuse me actually sounds like a song. Humdrum now sounds like Fundrum. What the heck was going on?
That PG1 album is from 1977 and is an analogue recording. I’ve got it too, a First pressing. It’s always sounded great on a pre cirkus LP12 to me, but I didn’t like it with cirkus or Lingo. I’ve not tried the Karousel though.

Where the pre cirkus LP12 really excels, particularly with an older Linn Supex Mc like an Asaka/karma/troika is with post 1982/83 digital recordings. There are so many examples from the mid to late 80s that don’t sound great- some records sound really bright and thin, and with digital edge. The pre cirkus deck’s sweeter top end and fuller bass really helps with those records to reduce digital edge.

I haven’t heard it but I’d be surprised if the latest upgrades like the Karousel or kore etc are as good for those kind of records as a pre cirkus deck. I might however be wrong. I will try those upgrades one day soon so I’ll report back when I do.

The pre cirkus LP12 is a bit limited for being of most use for these kind of 80s records with digital edge. I agree it certainly isn’t as good for more modern records and probably for older 60s tube transfers too.

Most of my records are from the 1980s, that’s why the pre cirkus LP12 suits me best.
 
What KEf model was it? I assume it was a Ui Q type driver. The hardness on the female vocals might have been partly due to the fact that the KEF uni Q driver gives the tweeter some horn loading. This can introduce some peakiness. It can give a hard sound in some of the upper midrange. They improved it for the latest models though I believe.
Kef Reference 107/2
 
Kef Reference 107/2
That older KEF 107/2 wasn’t a uni Q model, so the issue with female
vocals you define was not due to what I suggested.

The original 107 had a soft dome tweeter and they changed to a metal dome for the 107/2. It’s not always the case but quite often metal domes can have a slightly peaky sound and some HF resonances - particularly older types. Maybe not the best bet with Naim amps. It might have caused the reach for the aspirin feeling on female vocals and issues with more complex music. A high bias Class AB or class A MOSFET amp or a tube amp might have been a better choice for those speakers than Naim class B amps.

I doubt the issue with female vocals was down to the LP12 or tonearm choice. Any LP12 is usually delicate, refined and certainly not peaky with female
Vocals, and LP12s are usually pretty good with all types of music from my experience. A direct drive deck is better with dance/techno etc if you want more bass punch and dynamics, and say an idler deck better complex classical (better dynamics) but a good one like a very tricked out Garrard 301 will cost a lot more than an used Lp12. The LP12 still does a decent all around job with a range of different music types IMO.

The selectivity for a particular LP12 spec is more to do with vinyl from different eras in my experience. The thin and bright sounding 1980s LP12 I have in my collection do best with a pre cirkus deck. I’m sure a modern LP12 is better for more modern records than my pre cirkus deck.

I assume the LP12 you had was a pre cirkus model? What cartridge did you use? If it was an mk1 OC9 or K9
that might not have helped either!

I have to say I’m not a fan of most metal domes tweeters, although B&Ws are quite decent and not too peaky. Maybe a bit bright though.

Heard some very expensive Focal speakers recently with metal domes and thought they were awful. They were so peaky in the treble! but to be fair I’ve been spoilt by the full length Magnepan ribbon, which is more extended, more delicate and massively faster than any dome tweeter but isn’t peaky at all (on the later 3 series models). They are huge though!
 
That older KEF 107/2 wasn’t a uni Q model, so the issue with female
vocals you define was not due to what I suggested.

The original 107 had a soft dome tweeter and they changed to a metal dome for the 107/2. It’s not always the case but quite often metal domes can have a slightly peaky sound and some HF resonances - particularly older types. Maybe not the best bet with Naim amps. It might have caused the reach for the aspirin feeling on female vocals and issues with more complex music. A high bias Class AB or class A MOSFET amp or a tube amp might have been a better choice for those speakers than Naim class B amps.

I doubt the issue with female vocals was down to the LP12 or tonearm choice. Any LP12 is usually delicate, refined and certainly not peaky with female
Vocals, and LP12s are usually pretty good with all types of music from my experience. A direct drive deck is better with dance/techno etc if you want more bass punch and dynamics, and say an idler deck better complex classical (better dynamics) but a good one like a very tricked out Garrard 301 will cost a lot more than an used Lp12. The LP12 still does a decent all around job with a range of different music types IMO.

The selectivity for a particular LP12 spec is more to do with vinyl from different eras in my experience. The thin and bright sounding 1980s LP12 I have in my collection do best with a pre cirkus deck. I’m sure a modern LP12 is better for more modern records than my pre cirkus deck.

I assume the LP12 you had was a pre cirkus model? What cartridge did you use? If it was an mk1 OC9 or K9
that might not have helped either!

I have to say I’m not a fan of most metal domes tweeters, although B&Ws are quite decent and not too peaky. Maybe a bit bright though.

Heard some very expensive Focal speakers recently with metal domes and thought they were awful. They were so peaky in the treble! but to be fair I’ve been spoilt by the full length Magnepan ribbon, which is more extended, more delicate and massively faster than any dome tweeter but isn’t peaky at all (on the later 3 series models). They are huge though!
 
It was my FILs. He did have an early LP12 with Koetsu Red Sig.I think his PS was a Tom Evans design. I loved the speakers. I think you may be right in your assumptions. I think he had a 52 with 2 135s and some other Naim additions. My experience is down to 82/180.
 
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..digital electronics were wholly unavailable. I am also not sure that the actual alloy in a Karousel was commercially available to anyone (poss exception military aerospace) - perhaps a metallurgist can comment?

In addition, looking at just about anything made by (say) SME does suggest that your comments on the technical limitations of UK hifi companies may be less than generous.

Digital is only a small and recent part of the LP12 story. The bulk of the upgrades over the years have been mechanical and almost all of those have been making parts stiffer. Of course it was possible to make these parts earlier, that is my point. The problem was doing so economically.

Linn could have outsourced to someone like SME or Japan and made something like the Karousel decades ago, I don't know why they didn't, but certainly in the seventies they didn't have the machinery to make it in house. And they did have engineering capability. Most small hi-fi companies don't, even today.

The point is that small UK turntable manufacturers like Linn, Roxsan, Pink etc made simple turntables because building more advanced ones was beyond their capability. They didn't have the ability to design something like the 1200 never mind build it. No, SME could not have built it. Linn might be able to do it today, maybe, but unless you want to pay forty grand for it I wouldn't get exited.
 
You can mark me down as the one guy that has found ALL aftermarket 321, 324, 729 boards and HI-Cap regulators that I have tried to be less in tune that the originals supplied by Naim and designed by JV, some were just off Prat wise while others were outright terrible the way they would distort and dislocate the Tune IMO no matter how much burn in I offered them, and I have tried several, I'm will not name names of all the ones I have tried so don't ask. Better measurements don't always equate to more or even equal overall Tunefulness. And always remember, only make one change to your system at a time, if you do several of these so called "improvements" at once -which I've read many here seem to do- you can go down a deep rabbit hole which may be difficult to reemerge from..

You want to truly improve your Chrome Bumper/Olive Naim system? ...Properly maintain it and set it up properly, then improve your front end, simple, as nothing down the line can improve upon any shortcomings of your sources component, or said another way, if your source component isn't playing/reproducing the Tune then neither can the rest of your system no matter how much Tuneful potential it has. Personally, If I had to spend $10,000 on a new system I'd spend $7000 on the turntable/phonostage and $3000 on everything else.

Noted. You are a firm believer in JV era, I respect that. For those less strict, there are options to try that I for one, and there are many of us, feel improve on the design without losing the Naim sound. YMMV and clearly does. All good. All OT in that this is an LP12 thread but on topic in so much as it shows we all hear differently and use the same or similar words to mean completely different things making LP12 discussions harder! This is not surprising when there is no definitive version of what Linn "in tune" is. It certainly isn't what a piano tuner would consider in tune, as that requires correct sustained pitch, the very thing an LP12 struggles with. Many of us Naim folk suspect it is just whatever Linn sales people say it is i.e. the latest Linn offering, nothing more, nothing less. I agree with the Tune Dem as described by Linn in the link I provided above except it talks about quick A/B demo and not using a wide range of material and taking you time. That is another rabbit hole people fall down, a quick demo with one record, oh yes, definitely better, then try different genres or more striped back or complex pieces and ... ugh.

Completely agree, one change at a time. Otherwise you have no idea what is doing what and you just waste time and money.

I have never had, and unless inflation goes mad, never will have 10,000 to spend on a system. This is why I parted ways with Linn when their upgrades went from £££ to ££££. I don't doubt they are better, but 7,000 on a turntable is not for me. I have been fortunate enough to be able to get a LP12/Aro 72/Hicap/250 SBLs for very little 30 something years ago and gently improve (or destroy the tune of ...) over time with smaller purchases. I am happy each change was listened to carefully in A/B and I picked the one that sounded better, but since Linn tune holds no magic for me, I am sure I went wrong somewhere :p
 
It was my FILs. He did have an early LP12 with Koetsu Red Sig.I think his PS was a Tom Evans design. I loved the speakers. I think you may be right in your assumptions. I think he had a 52 with 2 135s and some other nail additions. My experience is down to 82/180.
Well the hardness issues defo wasn’t down to that v nice smooth sounding cartridge then.

Probably a bit of an amp/mismatch then.
If you have revealing and slightly bright (or slightly peaky) speakers it’s better to use a Class A or High bias class AB or MOSFET power amp or Class A tube power amp in
my experience. They smooth and fill things out a bit to give a nice balance. Many Tube amps usually smooth/fill things out the most and tame any brightness or harshness.

A bipolar transistor amp run in class B like the Naim 135 etc might be a bit too harsh sounding in that situation.
 
It seems to me that: a) you can’t isolate a single part of an LP12 and say this part will sound like this when that part doesn’t do anything until it’s part of an assembly of parts that work together as a totality, that is, an LP12; b) that LP12 is part of a system that works as a totality itself, and; c) that system operates within the confines of a room, by which I mean room geometry and physical dimensions, layout and furnishings, not to mention organic occupancy at any given time, etc. This complete ‘Total System’ will determine how you hear what you hear and whether a given change turns out to be an upgrade, despite what anyone else has to say about it with regards to opinion, prediction or experience. In other words, when you change one thing you change everything and so if you change even a single part on of LP12 you change how the whole thing works, the room, the system, the lot.

Exactly! I just moved my IKEA Strandmon armchair to the other side of the room to improve access to my electric guitar and amp and now music from my Tannoys sounds bass heavy. Even though it's a bit awkward for reaching my guitar and amp, I'm gonna have to put the chair back where it was as it turns out it was a great absorber of low(ish) frequencies.

Kit + kit = System. System + room = Total System!
 
The point is that small UK turntable manufacturers like Linn, Roxsan, Pink etc made simple turntables because building more advanced ones was beyond their capability. They didn't have the ability to design something like the 1200 never mind build it. No, SME could not have built it. Linn might be able to do it today, maybe, but unless you want to pay forty grand for it I wouldn't get exited.
Have you ever looked inside a Linn Karik? Linn would never make anything 'like' the 1200, it's not HiFi. A DD12 would be interesting, two better than an SP10. But would there be a market? Would it offer anything for the higher price?

FWIW Nirvana was same motor mounting arrangement as today, for the AC motor, what came before, I don't know.
 
Has anyone employed sorbothane on top of the ac motor plate to reduce vibration? Came across someone selling these special shaped pieces of sorbothane on eBay. Don't cost much but nonetheless wondering if they worked.
 
Have you ever looked inside a Linn Karik? Linn would never make anything 'like' the 1200, it's not HiFi. A DD12 would be interesting, two better than an SP10. But would there be a market? Would it offer anything for the higher price?

FWIW Nirvana was same motor mounting arrangement as today, for the AC motor, what came before, I don't know.

The Nirvana kit came standard on all LP12’s in 1981 serial number 32,800. Here’s a couple photos of a pre-Nirvana LP12 that shows the old motor and suspension parts.

KTYJTC8.jpg


3wqpUKQ.jpg
 
Real quality innit? My first one was almost as awful looking as this example. Now it's almost a Linn Mantra.
 
Here’s a newer entry level stock LP12 with Majik subchassis and A/C motor. Current models now include the Karousel bearing(not pictured here).

7po1.JPG
 
I think this statement is true but it helps to understand where exactly the blame lies.

It's not the speakers, especially Saras and Isobariks. Kans are hard to get working properly but are very good with complex music. Saras are difficult for totally different reasons but are ridiculously musical and forgiving once working. Naim amps, yeah a bit. They had a bit of a glaze to them and got shouty when pushed but they are not tripped up by complex music.

When looking at the LP12 you need to break it down as the deck itself is coloured but very forgiving. Its warmth is rarely an unpleasant addition. Early incarnations can sound rather soggy and lose the plot, especially at the bottom end, but it's very easily fixed with a few updates. Sub-chassis is the fist thing I'd hit as it's a biggie. The old bearing is fine with a good sub-chassis but generally the deck is good at any type of music. Just needs a little stiffening up.

By far the biggest issue, and one that few people identify, is the Linn arms. Yes, once you update the rest of the deck they are better but they are not neutral devices. Swap in just about anything else, an Aro or a Rega, and suddenly you can play all your records. Sure, they sound impressive with the right recordings but it isn't worth it. Personally I wouldn't go as far south as an Aro but a good Rega is a nice sweet spot that gives you nice fluidity and musicality while retaining just enough of the Linn fireworks to not be boring on Rock.

So this was a genuine problem but it's easily fixed and it's worth keeping the LP12 while doing it. Much better to retain the sweet yet involving Linn in the game rather than get a dull Giro or clinical Pink or Roxsan.

Been thinking about this and it’s probably pretty difficult to say exactly what caused certain issues without really extensive auditioning and different opinions. (we are taking abut the Classic Linn/Naim combo being good with simple music but falling apart a bit with more complex stuff)

I’ve personally always liked the Linn arms best and the Ittok is still my favourite overall as the best all rounder. It’s musical and big sounding but has enough detail and precision. Not the best by any means but enough. It’s similar but a bit less forward and is more natural sounding than the Ekos IMO (tried the Ekos mk1 twice and mk2 once, Not tried the SE yet)

I also tried the Aro (twice), Nima, and PU7 and they had some good ponts but
I preferred the Ittok (and Ekos) overall to all of those as the better all rounders. Now I haven’t tried a Rega on the LP12 yet but might do one day. I heard the Roksan Tabriz might work well too.

I would not personally describe the Aro as an all rounder compared to an Ittok or Ekos. I think the Linn arms are better all rounders. The Aro has far superior midrange purity and definition for sure, superior to the pivoted arms , but it’s got limited extension at both ends and a somewhat glassy sound that can get a bit clinical and tiresome. I found it horrific sounding on a cirkus LP12. I could only manage to listen to it on a Pre cirkus deck (many people agree with that), where the bigger midbass of the turntable filled out the lean lower end of the arm a bit and the sweeter precirkus top end of the deck helped the sound be less clinical and more musical. Tried the Aro twice. Same story each time although I chatted to Naim and they sent me a kit for the second one that is a kind of grease which is supposed to get rid of any air bubbles and is supposed to improve things, but I got rid of the arm before I tried it, unfortunately.

I know some people love the Aro but I’m not one of them. It’s a personal thing. Carts I tried were a Troika, Karma, Klyde, MC20 super and standard DL103. The Troika sounded best, so no surprises there.

I’ve still got a Nima and that’s not as pure sounding as the Aro in the mids but I prefer it overall. I personally think it’s a better all rounder. It sounds less constricted in the top end to me. I know some people prefer the Nima too whilst many others prefer the Aro.

I don’t find the LP12 with an Ittok or Ekos limited to a particular genre, and find it decent with complex material. I think it does a pretty good job with everything overall and I’ve found those arms to be the best compromise. That combo isn’t the very best on various genres but certainly good all round. For ultimate bass impact and dynamics for certain records a DD or idler deck is better for sure.

What I was talking with different spec LP12s was more to do with records from different eras. Digital 1980s records that sound thin and bright sound quite different to modern records and I prefer those on a pre cirkus deck.

With the older pre cirkus/Naim Combo, some of the issues might be down to the earlier Naim amps as you’ve suggested. There is the glaze you mention and I think they can emphasise some things in simple music that might make you like the sound more with that kind of simple material, and the same effect maybe starts to sound a bit unnatural and exaggerated with complex material?

A pre cirkus LP12 might not be quite as detailed with complex material as a cirkus or Karousel bearing LP12 with solid subchassis/armboard but it’s still quite decent in my experience. So I’d probably point the finger more at the earlier Naim amps rather than the Linn arms. I could be wrong though and as I say it’s difficult to tell without more testing and options.

I’ll try a Rega or a Roksan Tabriz one day and report back.

Ah just remembered that I did try out a tricked out Rega on an LP12 before, - one of the best Audiomods arms about 10 years ago. Good detail but I still found the LP12/Ittok or Ekos Combo much better all rounders and more to my liking. More weight to the sound but enough detail was retained. I also had a PU7 at the same time and found that had the most weight and scale of all of them but lacked the the detail and focus of the Linn arms, and it also sounded a bit too dark and bloated to me. I know others love the PU7. The one I had was an extremely early model so I suspect the later ones are better.

I had an Ittok, Ekos mk2, Audiomods and PU7 at the same time.

I had the Nima and Aros at different times (but each time had an Ittok to compare to).

Sold on the Audiomods and PU7 reasonably quickly. Stuck with the Ittok, although I have also lived with the Ekos mk1 before for quite a while and there isn’t that much between them.
 
I’ve personally always liked the Linn arms best and the Ittok is still my favorite overall as the best all rounder.

I think so much is down to context and taste it's almost impossible to say definitively that one arm is the best. I can see your preference for one arm or another swinging depending on the spec of the deck it's on. For example I disliked the Cirkus bearing so much I removed it and went back to an old bearing but my current deck has a Cirkus and with the Stack sub-chassis it's good.

I don't know how representative of the Rega sound the Audiomods arm is, I've never set eyes on one. That will change soon as a friend is about to put one on a 401. Personally, I've never seen the point of them. I don't see why they would be better than a top Rega and I don't understand some of the design choices. I remember asking Johnnie (Audio Origami) about the bearing arrangement on them and he wasn't very complimentary. He said it's the only arm he won't work on.

I agree about the Aro. It's all about the midrange. I'd rather have an Ittok or Ekos too.

I do think it's possible to have one deck that gets good music out of any era of record, I have one just now. I was listening to Charlie Parker 'Yardbird' earlier and Joy Division straight after that. Yeah, they sound pretty different but they both sound 'right'. It's easy to get a turntable to do that. What is difficult is to get a high resolution turntable to do that. Years ago I made that kind of even-handedness a priority and chose components accordingly. One of the things that led to was Rega tonearms. The RB3000 works so well I don't need it to be any better. Can't see me changing it any time soon.
 


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