Linn LP12 power supply advice

[Charlie_1]

I prefer it. My order of preference would be:

Norton
TAPS
Basic PSU
Valhalla

There is something really nice about the very early LP12/Ariston sound. Far from prefect obviously but it has a bounce and sway to the sound that later Linn decks often lack.

And the Geddon and Lingo?

So do you think the basic PSU/Norton etc are better at preserving sway/boogie already in the music, or somehow adding to or emphasising these elements?

I can't comment on your top 3 but even a Valhalla/Ittok/K9 deck has a fantasic ability to knit together multiple musical strands/melodies/instruments/etc. into a very coherent whole. There are some albums/recordings that really enable the deck to show this strength and are a real buzz for me. I think you've mentioned this before but perhaps in a more negative way about album dependance Anyway, to my ears, the Lingo gave up some of this Valhalla strength in exchange for other musical benefits - i.e. not just better HiFi. I can't say I have a preference atm but it's just interesting. No cake and eat it here.

 

[Mr Pig]

So do you think the basic PSU/Norton etc are better at preserving sway/boogie already in the music, or somehow adding to or emphasizing these elements?

Both I think. These decks emphasize the timing of certain kinds of music and sound great. At the same time you can clearly hear poor speed stability on other tracks. It's a strange thing, I don't pretend to fully understand it myself.

I've only heard the first Lingo and I wasn't a fan. You were gaining detail but losing weight and drive. I haven't heard the Armageddon except in someone else's system but from what I've heard it's up there with the best of them.

 

[Charlie_1]

Both I think. These decks emphasize the timing of certain kinds of music and sound great. At the same time you can clearly hear poor speed stability on other tracks. It's a strange thing, I don't pretend to fully understand it myself.

I think I know what you mean about timing and speed stability thing. A Valhalla deck is a long way off a Technics in terms of overall/macro timing/speed stability and yet, at the same time, micro timing/sync between musicians is great and very enjoyable (to me anyway).

 

[Mr Pig]

A Valhalla deck is a long way off a Technics in terms of overall/macro timing/speed stability and yet, at the same time, micro timing/sync between musicians is great and very enjoyable..

Exactly. The speed stability on my RP10 is obviously much better than the LP12s I had yet there are lots of tracks where the Linn let you hear subtle timing relationships the Rega doesn't make very clear. Yet at the same time the Linn could fall on it's arse playing other tracks, sounding almost drunken, while the Rega plays them perfectly.

Even on one album side, there can be tracks the Rega doesn't convey as well as the Linn did and others it plays better. It's a weird thing.

 

[chartz]

Yes, it is weird.
I was listening to a piano record earlier on and the speed was not stable it seemed.
The deck was the nice Dual 741Q (underrated gem, this) which is direct drive! The strobe was rock steady of course, with the purposeful Papst motor doing its job perfectly.
The same disc on the Technics or the TD160 posed no problems.
Mmm...
I’ll try the Revox next.

 

[suzywong]

Do you recall how it compared to the Valhalla back in the day?

I would have liked to be able to say that "it was a night and day uplift" over the original "PSU" (aka, a small PCB with a couple of components on it)......but

...it was a very long time ago ('85 or '86?). However, Ivor said "it is better", so it must have been! (bit like the Nirvana springs.....)

..all I do remember is that in our particular case (one for Mr. P. ) the 45rpm adaptor stopped working.

Now the LIngo 1 (coz I could play all the Frankie Goes To Hollywood 12"-45's) and indeed the Trampolinn are/were good.

 

[peterm]

Something fun would be to try the LP12 directly on the mains, à la Thorens TD160.

With all the fancy supplies that have been in and out of fashion for decades I suppose nobody has dared try!

That's how I used mine for several years until Valhalla came out.
I thought it sounded fine.

And of course the Nirvana springs were intended for dealers benefit, not customers, since compared with the inconsistent quality of the original springs the new springs made setting up an LP12 "heaven" insread of the hassle of swapping springs arouns in an attempt to get "the bounce"!

 

[Mr Pig]

A simple Systemdek IIX, a Thorens or a Linn is so much more musical and easy.

But the interesting question is, why?

Why is 'better' speed stability not simply better? I do think there are anomalies in the speed stability of some turntables which accentuate different aspects of the music but I reckon there is more to it. I think the way the deck portrays the different parts of the frequency range are just as influential. For example the early LP12 had a 'plumy' sound, fat and full upper bass, which I think aids the bouncy sound. If you delved deeply enough I think you'd find colourations in specific areas, which maybe heighten apparent dynamics or blur some sounds, and help the perception of rhythm.

 

[Enfield boy]

My local Linn/Naim dealer organised an event to demonstrate the Lingo (1) a long time ago. I owned a Valhalla LP12 at the time, Naim amps were used in the comparison and I hated the Lingo.
A while after my Valhalla board started to fail so I bought an Armageddon, this was better (than the knackered Valhalla) but never seemed like vfm. Years later I heard reports that early SMPSs and Naim didn't go well together. Later still I became Radikalised and got back what was lost when the Valhalla failed, never missed the Armageddon.

 

[Mr Pig]

A while after my Valhalla board started to fail so I bought an Armageddon, this was better (than the knackered Valhalla) but never seemed like vfm.

I don't think the Norton/Avondale PSUs were hugely better than the basic capacitor PSU of early decks. The noticeable difference was over the Valhalla and Lingo which had a leaner sound and I agree that they were not good value.

 

[Charlie_1]

This thread seems to have been spared the normal Linn/Naim bashing so thanks to anyone that held back this time.

I did also wonder if many anti-Linn folks are just so bored with it all that they are not even reading it

 

[Charlie_1]

Oh well

 

[Mr Pig]

If you want the modern LP12 sound you can get it much cheaper with better build quality from other companies. Heard the new Rega 8 (sound is not very LP12 like), it is a true killer! Never heard a LP12 with such clean highs.

That's true, these Rega decks are technically very, very good but it's not just about being clean, detailed etc. There have always been decks that were more detailed or had better speed stability than the LP12 but lots of people still bought the Linn.

Things can be too clean. I was just thinking about this last night. There is a balance between a lack of obvious distortion and the feeling of the music being something that's happening I the real world, because the real world is not super clean. A heck of a lot of Hi-Fi gets this wrong.

 

[Chefren]

But the interesting question is, why?

Why is 'better' speed stability not simply better? I do think there are anomalies in the speed stability of some turntables which accentuate different aspects of the music but I reckon there is more to it. I think the way the deck portrays the different parts of the frequency range are just as influential. For example the early LP12 had a 'plumy' sound, fat and full upper bass, which I think aids the bouncy sound. If you delved deeply enough I think you'd find colourations in specific areas, which maybe heighten apparent dynamics or blur some sounds, and help the perception of rhythm.

I don't see how better speed stability would be anything but better up to a point after which it becomes inaudible to improve it more.

It has to be other things. It has surprised me how good mileage I get from isolating the turntable on something light and stiff with a bit of isolation under it (currently using a loose Something Solid shelf and some of their feet under that). Also when I had to disassemble my Xerxes 20 to get the wad from a q-tip out of the bearing, I was surprised how much slightly over-tightening the bearing screws killed dynamics. It got better when I disassembled it again to get it right. Small changes in vibration control affected the sound much more than any cable I have ever tried.

 

[wylton]

...I was surprised how much slightly over-tightening the bearing screws killed dynamics.

It's one of the biggest crimes against hi-fi in modern times! I often wonder how much more we could get out of our systems, particularly from the trurntable/arm/cart if we got the tihghtness of the nuts/bolts right.

 

[Chefren]

I remember reading a research paper which had made tests and concluded that a typical screw will reduce the most vibrations when tightened to around 60% of maximum torque. I don't have the link anymore though so I can't check the details. However the conclusion was more generally that a screw is a vibration dampening construction and there is an optimal tightness that is smaller than the maximum tightness.

 

[Mr Pig]

I often wonder how much more we could get out of our systems, particularly from the turntable/arm/cart if we got the tightness of the nuts/bolts right.

Years ago I got my LP12 serviced by a so called expert and it came back sounding terrible. When I investigated he'd done up all the bolts crazy tight. The arm height bolt on the arm pillar was so tight I had to use an extension on the Allan key to get it free! I thought it was going to snap. Total stupidity and this was a guy who was recommended as being really good with LP12s.

I don't see how better speed stability would be anything but better...

You would think so, but CD has great speed stability! Yet it's the flow and rhythm of vinyl that's often sited as being better than CD.

Yes, I do think there are other things going on but I also think that there are speed fluctuations on turntables that can actually enhance the sense of rhythm, or detract from it. Motor cogging in direct drives, belts going boing, suspension oscillating, perhaps in response to the stylus drag changes. So many possibilities but the fact that turntables drive types can sound so different suggests to me that there is a lot going on we don't understand.

 

[Chefren]

You would think so, but CD has great speed stability! Yet it's the flow and rhythm of vinyl that's often sited as being better than CD.

True, but I believe it's not the speed stability that is the reason for this. If we would manage to change a CD player to have speed stability issues, I think it would not actually sound subjectively better that the unchanged one.

 

[wylton]

That's what I would do. Back in the day the generally accepted pecking order among the people I knew who'd tried them seemed to be:

Norton Air Power
Naim Armageddon
Avondale TAPS

Any are are better than the Valhalla in my opinion.

At last, I got around to comparing the Norton AirPower to the Lingo 1 on the LP12/Kore/Audiomods Classic/metal bodied 103. The Norton came straight out of the box and was plonked unceremoniously on the adjacent desk, with no warm up.

Immediately the stylus hit the groove, it was clear that with the AirPower, there was more space, better inner detail and the top was somehow smoother and less fizzy, without losing the shimmer on the cymbals and Stevie Nick’s voice had more expression.

A bit of a PITA tbh, because I like the 45rpm facility of the Lingo. I do have other record players that can play 45’s, or if I can be bothered, I could run the two supplies side-by-side; we’ll see.

I used Fleetwood Mac’s – Dreams as the test piece, mostly because I had been using it to compare mats on the 401 downstairs, having listened to @flatpopely Tranquiliy test pieces here, which use the aforementioned track.

 

[sq225917]

Dacs converted the bass faster than the rest.. you do realise that every single possible frequency that a cd can encode uses exactly the number of bits to encode it? That idea is simply preposterous