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Linn K5 & K9 confusion

FWIW, in over 40 years I think all my cartridges have had aluminium cantilevers, ranging from my first A&RP77 to Denon 301, 103Pro to Linn Troika and back to my original A&R with breathed on suspension and retip and I don´t remember a family trait of "cardboardiness" with any of them. How does cardboard sound ? I have no reason to doubt that mineral cantilevers can sound better as in Jicos but not to the exclusion of other materials´suitability to do a decent job. A retipper mate firmly believes the suspension used is just as important as the tip profile and he prefers what he calls his "organic" cantilevers which I believe come from a certain cactus plant but he won´t spill the beans.
 
FWIW, in over 40 years I think all my cartridges have had aluminium cantilevers, ranging from my first A&RP77 to Denon 301, 103Pro to Linn Troika and back to my original A&R with breathed on suspension and retip and I don´t remember a family trait of "cardboardiness" with any of them. How does cardboard sound ? I have no reason to doubt that mineral cantilevers can sound better as in Jicos but not to the exclusion of other materials´suitability to do a decent job. A retipper mate firmly believes the suspension used is just as important as the tip profile and he prefers what he calls his "organic" cantilevers which I believe come from a certain cactus plant but he won´t spill the beans.

Hi Chris, well I used other adjectives to describe what I'm hearing 'cheap', 'boxy', 'hard' sounding which I'm quite sure you understand. I had alu cantilevers oh my denon dl110, Shelter 201 too & neither sounding like this.

But this one is doubly as wide it seems, & as I read a fair bit about the limitations of alu cantilevers compromising sound I was wondering therefore, if perhaps, I have a better tip on a worse cantilever, compared to my Shelter for eg (the mfr in china thing bugs me as well: how can the rep tell me it's made in japan, & the box telling me it's mfr in china?).
 
As a youngster in the UK, I vaguely remember Japanese transistor electronics and of course their cars getting a good ribbing when they first appeared in Europe but look at them now. The once widely mistrusted Chinese, Vietnamese, Malaysian etc. etc. goods and production methods have come a long way in a very short time and I wouldn´t worry about that - also Audio-Technica must be pretty exacting with their QC I imagine. Anyway, maybe the Shelter body is not up to the more advanced tip, though why that should be, no idea but it´s just as plausible. I remember the time when Rega RB300 arms were considered as barely fit for MC cartridges because of their price - talk of the greater forces generated within an MC might shake their bearings to pieces - load of codswallop but I believed what I read. Now I just believe Craig.
 
Hi Craig, no I thought you might be assuming something appalling (such is the way on forums.. meaning is so often lost or grossly exaggerated) so I put pic up fir you. Actually this looks better than it is, ie you can't even see the gap.

Anyway. One thing I notice, & read new info about ( never knew various materials used before you mentioning these new-to-me ML & SH stylus) is the cantilever material. So I read about alu, & next step up boron, even bafflingly exotic ruby etc.

I've noticed 'boron' before, but never knew it referred to the cantilever ('Koetsu boron' for eg, doesn't tell me which bit is boron, so I might have fleetingly & naiively assumed it's the body).

This one is not only alu, as expected in this £150 cart price, but 2x the width of my 201. Reminds me of budget ones I first had in 80's, an A&R c77 or so. As Im struggling with this 'hard/ wooden' 'cardboardy/ boxy' sound affecting all but the very decent HF area, I wonder if this largish alu cantilever might be responsible?

Not conjecture, I ask this from a pov of having now read up about differing stiffness of a cantilever, & aluminium's "sonic weakness" in this regard.

Capt
Leaving the subject of cantilever materials aside for the moment, I've an experiment for you that will a least satisfy a niggle of mine wrt what may or may not be affecting your perception of the sound as is. Specifically, put on a good sounding record that you know well, but cue up the last track first, followed by immediately playing the first track. Discounting artistic preferences, which track sounds better to you?
 
As a youngster in the UK, I vaguely remember Japanese transistor electronics and of course their cars getting a good ribbing when they first appeared in Europe but look at them now. The once widely mistrusted Chinese, Vietnamese, Malaysian etc. etc. goods and production methods have come a long way in a very short time and I wouldn´t worry about that - also Audio-Technica must be pretty exacting with their QC I imagine. Anyway, maybe the Shelter body is not up to the more advanced tip, though why that should be, no idea but it´s just as plausible. I remember the time when Rega RB300 arms were considered as barely fit for MC cartridges because of their price - talk of the greater forces generated within an MC might shake their bearings to pieces - load of codswallop but I believed what I read. Now I just believe Craig.
Oh dear, no pressure here!

The HDD in my Mac mini here is from a Japanese major (Toshiba) but marked 'Made in Philippines', it also has an Apple logo and part no. on. Politically, I just don't know what to think of it.
 
As a youngster in the UK, I vaguely remember Japanese transistor electronics and of course their cars getting a good ribbing when they first appeared in Europe but look at them now. The once widely mistrusted Chinese, Vietnamese, Malaysian etc. etc. goods and production methods have come a long way in a very short time and I wouldn´t worry about that - also Audio-Technica must be pretty exacting with their QC I imagine. Anyway, maybe the Shelter body is not up to the more advanced tip, though why that should be, no idea but it´s just as plausible. I remember the time when Rega RB300 arms were considered as barely fit for MC cartridges because of their price - talk of the greater forces generated within an MC might shake their bearings to pieces - load of codswallop but I believed what I read. Now I just believe Craig.

Hi Chris, all understood & in some way I can even vouch for china mfr'ing: far the best eg is what im tippy tapping away on right now a sleek, well built, ipad. But my point on hifi mfr is somewhat different, in that decades of trust & knowledge that japan is just the best stylus mfr, means I have a -point- (another fabulous pun) in wanting a continuation: it leads to a certain confidence. And if the AT rep tells me so too.. then I rcv it & box says 'china' I ain't so thrilled with AT from the off tbh. And the human rights thing, daily getting worse, too. My iPad incidentally is used.

Anyway back on -track- (boomtish- & another). Yes I do what Chris says too! He's spot on with the ML being an upgrade, although, I can only hear this within the HF areas (so far that is: I'm 9 hrs in only). But as this HF area 'unlocking' was kinda my goal he's already proven he knows a shedload.

@Craig B ok will do the test, but look I can never ever hear any difference (in 40 yrs) between this 1st track thingy & last track thingy. Its a thingy I don't know, because either I don't know what I'm listening out for, or I'm extremely thick. It's likely both at the same time. Its like if a wine drinker doesn't know a good red from a not so good one ( tbh 95% of the people I've known) without being told why, then they don't know/ oblivious. Not a great analogy, but helps a bit. "Mis-tracking" too.. I've no idea on gods earth what that means. "It sticks in the groove very well".. wtf? (all of my carts have -seemingly to me- done just this, haven't they?). "Inner groove distortion".. similarly so.

And I've done the proper TT route too I'm no 'part timer': literally worked my way up from rotel rp830 aged 12, revolver, rega p3, to this lp12 25 yrs ago: I doubt anyone listens more often than me to a TT. I either need educating.. or a smacked batty, I dunno.

Capt
 
@Craig B ok will do the test, but look I can never ever hear any difference (in 40 yrs) between this 1st track thingy & last track thingy. Its a thingy I don't know, because either I don't know what I'm listening out for, or I'm extremely thick. It's likely both at the same time. Its like if a wine drinker doesn't know a good red from a not so good one ( tbh 95% of the people I've known) without being told why, then they don't know/ oblivious. Not a great analogy, but helps a bit. "Mis-tracking" too.. I've no idea on gods earth what that means. "It sticks in the groove very well".. wtf? (all of my carts have -seemingly to me- done just this, haven't they?). "Inner groove distortion".. similarly so.
I suggested this test moreso as a means of potentially putting your mind to rest wrt overhang/offset alignment not necessarily being what you'd hoped for relative to having been able to give the Shelter a wee twisty. Should the last track and the first sound equally clean and clear then your overhang/offset can't be too bad. With an ML tip sitting close to Stevenson alignment, I suspect your last track might even sound a wee bit 'cleaner' than the first.

And I've done the proper TT route too I'm no 'part timer': literally worked my way up from rotel rp830 aged 12, revolver, rega p3, to this lp12 25 yrs ago: I doubt anyone listens more often than me to a TT. I either need educating.. or a smacked batty, I dunno.
RP-830 would have been a great starter deck. Likely came with your first audio-technica cartridge too (AT110E with blue stylus knob?). As you appear to be a fellow fan of irony, this might be a good time to inform you that electrically your AT-VM95ML owes more to AT110E than it does to AT93 (ol' yellow) or AT95E (the old green one).
 
Good point about the cart -body- perhaps being the weak link Chris. And the suspension maybe needing to loosen up too. Wooden sounding is perhaps the best adjective, & applies only to the mids & lower; I really hope -this- aspect improves.. or I'm gonna have to think of another cart tbh.

No huge deal if so, I won't lose out £too much. And would have been a very useful exercise, as ML does seem like the way to progress.

Thanks, Capt
 
@Craig B Ah understand now, well I can't tell any detrimental things 1st to last track ( but Ive never done in 40 yrs as said!) so I think it's just ok & within acceptable alignment then.

Yes that At110e rings a bell. Well gone full circle then. Crikey you know your TT's! Hopefully my full TT "upgrade route" from the rotel gives you more confidence in my 'knowledge' too.

I am waiting on some new power rail Caps for my 321 naim gain boards (nichicon muse KZ 47/50v), & the current 3.3uf MMK Ive popped in do give a bit of 'woodenness' to general proceedings, hence wanting to change them, although they do help open the treble out. So have this change to factor in, when they get to me from HK that is..

[I have supperregs in my 32.5 you see hence trying these 3.3uf films, in the "47uf power rail position", top RHS of board: I also found these Muse KZ 's my favourite for the all-important 47uf feedback cap too, just below it].
 
Good point about the cart -body- perhaps being the weak link Chris. And the suspension maybe needing to loosen up too. Wooden sounding is perhaps the best adjective, & applies only to the mids & lower; I really hope -this- aspect improves.. or I'm gonna have to think of another cart tbh.

No huge deal if so, I won't lose out £too much. And would have been a very useful exercise, as ML does seem like the way to progress.

Thanks, Capt
I can't see Chris' post, however, I would certainly agree that the suspension should be given time to relax into its 'nominal' tension. I say tension, because A-T MMs feature a tie wire, albeit a polymer monofilament on all but the top two 700 series models (plus a couple of Asia market only lower models which also feature stainless tie wires).
 
@Craig B Ah understand now, well I can't tell any detrimental things 1st to last track ( but Ive never done in 40 yrs as said!) so I think it's just ok & within acceptable alignment then.

Yes that At110e rings a bell. Well gone full circle then. Crikey you know your TT's! Hopefully my full TT "upgrade route" from the rotel gives you more confidence in my 'knowledge' too.

I am waiting on some new power rail Caps for my 321 naim gain boards (nichicon muse KZ 47/50v), & the current 3.3uf MMK Ive popped in do give a bit of 'woodenness' to general proceedings, hence wanting to change them, although they do help open the treble out. So have this change to factor in, when they get to me from HK that is..

[I have supperregs in my 32.5 you see hence trying these 3.3uf films, in the "47uf power rail position", top RHS of board: I also found these Muse KZ 's my favourite for the all-important 47uf feedback cap too, just below it].
Your regulator ground plane wiring would do any Naim tech proud, Capt.
 
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Your regulator ground plane wiring would do any Naim tech proud, Capt.

That's a compliment! Alot of work went into that 32.5, the s'regs & diy'cap (separate box) are great, but not convinced the small teddy pardo boards I added to each, actually make much of a difference.

Craig re. your test: as said I can't hear anything untoward.. but this is purely bc (like the naiive wine taster) I don't know what to listen for.

So, I've been mulling on why one would, for eg, propose such a test. It must (logic tells me) be related to the cart's perpendicular alignment to the groove (& I assume should be relative to being precisely perp, as my Origami protractor suggests, at the mid-point of an Lp side).

So, if I think onward, if with my Shelter 201 I could swizzle the cart a mite to gain such a perfect-midpoint-alignment, it therefore follows that @ both the start & end of an Lp side... the cart will be fractionally 'off kilter' in equal ammounts ( let's just call it equal, for here).

So, if I think further & exaggerate this 'off kilter' aspect, I could if I wanted, arrive at a barking mad stylus following the groove at 45*. If I then consider what it might read at such a daft angle, & know the two sides of the "V" shaped groove are L & R channels.. I arrive at a conclusion that one side will be 'read' by the stylus fractionally ahead of the other side. The two channels won't be " in sync" with each other. Perhaps, smearing might result (I can only imagine some such form of 'wrong' audible numnums would result).

Is my thought process here, although hugely exaggerated @45* purely to aid my explanation, relevant in any way to the perpendicular setting up of a stylus-? Furthermore, does it have -any- relevance as to the reason for asking the simple (1st & last song) test of me-??
 
If you are referring to the Audio Origami Protractor developed by vinylengine user Seb, then you may be confusing 'mid-point alignment' with 'inner null-point alignment'. Or, perhaps you are thinking of using the alignment method that returns lowest peak distortion at the mid-point between the two null points (i.e. Löfgren 'B').

Regardless, what Seb failed to make clear in his instructions (linked to below) is that this protractor offers both Baerwald (66mm inner null) and specifically Löfgren 'B' (70.3mm inner null) alignment. To confuse matters, Baerwald's work was the same as Löfgren's earlier work, known as Löfgren 'A' alignment, also resulting in a 66mm inner null and balanced tracking distortion peaks.

Löfgren 'A'/Baerwald (credit where credit is due, hence Löfgren first) results in equal percentage distortion peaks across the record, whereas Löfgren 'B' sacrifices the outer two for lowest peak distortion between the nulls, and so aiming for lowest distortion over the broadest continuous stretch of play. Basically, there are three such peaks; 1) at start of record, 2) between outer and inner null points, and 3) at end of record.

A lot of folk think these choices are critical, however, my own experiments have long since proven to me that the alignment choice differences are swamped by a given tip profiles ability to trace the groove more accurately than another, particularly so at near end of record side. As such, comparing the last track with the first can be quite telling here.

Another thing to keep in mind when considering these alignment methods is that even the loosest of them (wrt how high these distortion peaks are) only take 'tracking distortion' up to circa 1.0% from circa 0.6% across all three balanced peaks of Löfgren 'A'/Baerwald. It is important to note that tracking distortion is not to be confused with 'mis-tracking' (loss of groove wall contact), nor 'tracing error' (inability of a given shape to accurately follow the record cutter path) but, along with these, can certainly contribute to making things sound less convincing than they should.

http://www.audioorigami.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/audioorigami-instructions.pdf

Lofgren-A-vs-B.jpg


P.S. Where your Mission 774's intended (but slightly missed first time round) Stevenson alignment comes into its own is at the IEC 1958 / RIAA 1963 (60.325 mm) spec for end of last track, i.e. the 60mm point of the graph above being inner null zero tracking distortion point with Stevenson coinciding with where the record 'should' end. Makes perfect sense when this last 10mm is the most difficult to trace accurately (albeit, the initial start of record distortion peak of Stevenson is higher than the others, however, this is where tracing is least difficult for any tip profile).​
 
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@Craig B Hi Craig, thanks for this post chock full of things- it'll take me over xmas to decipher & understand it but will try.

The thing is though, my question was at an understanding WAY back from making sense of your info here.

I'm essentially asking: why/ for what purpose, did you ask me to consider the 1st & last song as a test?**

All I can do, is to rack my brain & try imagining why you'd ask this- my thought process of which, is what I was attempting to explain using a simplistic exaggerated analogy of a cart mounted at a hyperthetical 45*.

**could you explain as simply as you can, why ask this? Thanks, Capt
 
The purpose of asking you to consider comparing the first and last track was that should one track consistently sound worse than the other then this can be indicative of gross tonearm/cartridge misalignment. Normally, such differences can be masked by the inability of lesser tip profiles to trace the last track as accurately as the first, however, your new ML tip will be unfazed.

Regardless, I suggested such a test as a means to put your mind at rest wrt not being able to twist the new cart inward a smidge in order to achieve whichever alignment you were after with your OL protractor (i.e. another reason to find those captive screws).
 
The purpose of asking you to consider comparing the first and last track was that should one track consistently sound worse than the other then this can be indicative of gross tonearm/cartridge misalignment. Normally, such differences can be masked by the inability of lesser tip profiles to trace the last track as accurately as the first, however, your new ML tip will be unfazed.

Regardless, I suggested such a test as a means to put your mind at rest wrt not being able to twist the new cart inward a smidge in order to achieve whichever alignment you were after with your OL protractor (i.e. another reason to find those captive screws).

Hi Craig, yes I realised that if it was misaligned, the first track &/ or last would in theory sound worse. I realised this at the time of asking the test of me.

The thing is though. If I don't know what a misaligned cartridge sounds like, I don't know what to be listening for. Naiive wine taster analogy etc.

So, this more specifically, is what I was asking you to explain. To explain this is what I was asking, is very difficult to do, within a box of text (your reply above prooves this, as you didn't understand my enquiry by all accounts). So, I was trying to include a daft 45* ludicrous example, as a way of exxagerration, in order to try explaining, what I am asking.

IE. If my cartridge was (or even is, I have no idea) misaligned either/ or at the 1st or last track......... what would this audibly materialise as? If I know the answer to this, I can then properly answer your simple test question.
 
@Craig B I am going to have to do a "TT cartridge basics" thread I think, as I'm asking too much of you here- & as it's impossible me trying to explain/ communicate/ via boxes of text.. if we're locked onto the wrong tangent.

You're answering from a point hugely forward of where my understanding is, & I'm obviously not explaining well how far behind I am.

If I start afresh, I can ask other folks, to walk me through all this from the beginning. The ML shape thing, took meso long to understand, not because I'm that thick, but because boxes of text are so hopeless/ the point of an enquiry is so easily lost, & confusion simply reigns supreme.

Very grateful for your help. I don't want to get you angry & frustrated though, you've been SO patient & kind:)

The ML stylus (i never knew existed until a week ago) is on right now, & gives a new window for me into my TT adventure.

Thanks, Capt
 
No worries here, @The Captain. I should apologize for not having interpreted your post #132 above properly.

Now that I realize what you were specifically asking, I must confess that it has been so many decades since I've actually listened to a poorly aligned cartridge wrt overhang and offset that I am at a loss as to how to describe the sound of such in any usefully subjective way. This is complicated by any negative affects of such misalignment tending to be far more subtle than, and generally overshadowed by, such as azimuth (cartridge/stylus verticality when viewed from front on) the misalignment of which results in both obvious L vs R channel imbalance and distinctly different sound quality between the two channels. This is one of the reasons why I was more concerned about your cartridge 'gap' one side before seeing the photo. Of course, we shouldn't forget where we started here, specifically with tip profile 'tracing' ability (or inability, as it were) relative to the path taken by the cutter head, which trumps all.
 
@Craig Does my daft example of a cart set at 45* though ( it never would be, but helps explain my thinking), & if so, one channel being 'read' by the stylus 'fractionally sooner' than the other.. hold any water at all?

Im trying to consider you see, the basics of what is trying to be mitigated against, when setting up a cartridge.

So to help Im trying to exaggerate a wrongly aligned cartridge, & consider the stylus position within the groove, & then think what this might equate to.. in audible terms.
 
Update on my ATML cart after 12 hrs.

Firstly I can't hear a fig of difference now to new (I think the break-in thing is a myth myself, I've never heard it on any new stylus I've ever had!). Secondly there's alot more revealed, quite impressively so, but only within the top half of proceedings, IE above the midrange. Nothing added below.

Then on: I find the treble is sharper than my 201. And also a bit thinner: so more is revealed, but it's thinner.

Then on I'm into the things that I'm struggling with. Firstly a boomy woodenness to the quality of the lower half, annoyingly so, rather 'cheap cart' sounding dare I say. Secondly everything is quite hard & 'analytical' more akin to cd sound. Lastly it's a wee bit noisier, so the dynamics are hampered just a fraction by this.

A sideways step is my conclusion- I think an ML on a better quality body perhaps, &/ or a better quality cantiliver (&/ or suspension?) would be an upgrade. But I think that narrows the choice to a £250 Jico 201 microline for me. Ouch.

I'll give it another 8 hours in case the break in thing isn't snake oil.. & consider if it stays. Interesting though. And I've learnt alot too.

Cheers, Capt
 


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