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Linn K5 & K9 confusion

Discussion in 'classic' started by lilolee, Oct 18, 2020.

  1. The Captain

    The Captain ~~~~~~~~~~

    Hi there daytona, I did some research on this, tho I forget what an SAS is right now ( shape?).. but the consensus was you can't get these Jico types to fit. Do you know better I wonder? Thanks, capt
     
  2. Craig B

    Craig B Re:trophile

    The Shelter is a better allrounder if you happen to be running Naim MM boards. Much more tolerant of the high input capacitance.

    If you are running NA322/? boards, your best option for opening up a world of MM cartridge possibilities is to change out the 470pF polystyrene caps for 100pF ones. Details available upon request.:)
     
  3. The Captain

    The Captain ~~~~~~~~~~

    @Craig B Well.. I've prolly done about everything else! Tbh I can't recall if my 322's polystyrenes are the originals, or if I did change to 100pf. I'll dig the thing out & see.

    Would be great to get an 'upgrade' to my otherwise decent 201. I certainly can't go next step up in cartridge, just not the funds for such a move.

    [​IMG]
     
    Pine Marten likes this.
  4. daytona600

    daytona600 Registered User

    SAS extended line contact Styli with boron/sapphire/ruby cantilevers
     
  5. The Captain

    The Captain ~~~~~~~~~~

    Super eliptical stylus-? Oh bllx thats ses. What's the SAS then?
     
  6. daytona600

    daytona600 Registered User

    extended line contact
     
  7. Craig B

    Craig B Re:trophile

    'Super Analog Stylus', JICO's version of the MicroRidge™ species within the line contact genera of the diamond stylus family (patented by (Adamant) Namiki Precision Jewel Co., Ltd. of Japan in 1983).

    [​IMG]
     
  8. The Captain

    The Captain ~~~~~~~~~~

    Hi Craig, many thanks for these diagrams.

    I must admit this 'upward of an elliptical' thing, is a whole new arena for me. And rather complicated too ( the diagrams are interesting, & see the shape style especially the weird side profile.. but images still mean little to me).

    I do in fact find a SAS stylus, for my 201. One place only, at "SN Vinyl" (seems odd just one source for these). £250 as opposed to £90 for another elliptical. Hmm.. could I stretch? Would it be a good +£160 spent? I wonder.

    To complicate things further for me, there are 4 types of SAS. I mean jeepers.. how you guys keep up with this complexity I've no idea. Differing cantilever material it seems: from the SN website..

    Standard

    Elliptical Nude ( SHELTER201-E )

    Superior

    Hyper Elliptical Bonded ( )

    Shibata Line Contact Nude ( )

    Ultimate SAS Super Analogue Stylus Microridge Line Contact

    SAS/B Nude on Boron ( SHELTER201-SASB)

    [Then other SAS types, but absurdly expensive]

    -------------

    I can safely say anything above the Boron SAS (ruby? sapphire? Zirconia?? I've no comprehension what any of this means).. is far out of my £ means. So, this SASB is interesting. Could you enlighten me a bit about the difference between my Standard Nude Eliptical.. & this? Grateful if so.

    Capt.
     
  9. The Captain

    The Captain ~~~~~~~~~~

    I find a useful AT page, explaining the basics of 3 different tip shapes. Spherical, Eliptical, Micro-Line. Right, so I dive in, & I'm stuck in the beginning understanding what "The Elliptical stylus has two radii, the front radius being wider than the side radius" means.

    Im trying to visualise 2 radius (a radius can only be of a circle), one bigger, at a perpendicular angle to the other. Then I'm trying to combine them into a visual manifestation, with "elliptical" in mind. I cannot for the life of me do so.

    And this AT explanation page, is meant to be 'simple' too. So how on earth am I meant to understand any of this?! I've had TT's for 40 years & I cannot understand a word of it! Utterly bizarre.
     
  10. Craig B

    Craig B Re:trophile

    It is -5:00GMT here, and my brain is screaming x^2/a^2 + y^2/b^2 = 1, but after my second cup of coffee wears off I will attempt to explain the difference between the two semi-minor axes of an ellipse and how these relate to the better tracing (and hence tracking) of a record groove. Stay tuned, this should be good (once I come down).

    On second thought, here is an old drawing from Namiki that tells the story without any nasty calculus involved. Note that stylus shapes are cross sections, and the more horizontal the wee arrows plus the more consistent the size of the cross-sections within each set of three, the closer to the record cutter will be the scanning (i.e. changes in cross sectional size indicate areas where the stylus travels further vertically when it shouldn't, most noticeable with the round spherical, aka conical).

    [​IMG]
     
  11. daytona600

    daytona600 Registered User

  12. The Captain

    The Captain ~~~~~~~~~~

    @Craig B & @daytona600 thanks so much chaps, really grateful for trying to explain.

    Jeepers creepers I'm up a gumtree. Some of was making sense, until Craig's wibbly worm emerged (which has shafted my past 2 hours' research!). My brain is aching from 2 hrs of trying to understand the shapes, of these tips, & which way this shape is orientated to the groove.

    The diagram of the eliptical in daytona's post above (not the pics, just the b&w diagram).. is particularly confusing. It seems like one side of it is sheered or something. No idea on gods earth. I'll have to discount it as a 'bad diagram'

    You see I cant make any sense of the weird shape of the microline profile, in Craigs worm, relative to the simple v profile of the groove. The two shapes are so different from each other, I can't see any compatibility of shape. Flummoxed by this.

    So, as this SAS microline profile is the only possibility by way of an " affordable" upgrade.. as this is all so difficult to understand, I may as well just forget all other shapes that are not relevant (the tip photos in daytonas post, are all so similar, for me not to see any useably visual difference between them, to help my comprehension).

    Ok must boil this right down. The two that are relevant: my current elliptical, & this weird SAS microline thing. I have just found out what this jico word is. A manufacturer. Ok I'm like at the start again. Must take a breather.
     
    Craig B likes this.
  13. The Captain

    The Captain ~~~~~~~~~~

    Maybe I just dont neccessarily -need- to understand the actual shape, in order to consider buying a different profile stylus? I mean I'd prefer to know, but is it actually needed to make a judgement, on whether to buy a different one I wonder.
     
  14. Craig B

    Craig B Re:trophile

    Ok, we're going to have to flip over to brassiere fitment similes then.
     
  15. The Captain

    The Captain ~~~~~~~~~~

    This sums up my confusion. During my almost whole afternoon in brainache trying to understand this subject, I find this diagram below. The Front View 1st row info is clear enough ( although I can't reconcile this SAS shape to other diagrams of SAS shapes). But the clarity stops there for me.

    The problem I'm stuck on is reconciling the strange shape of the SAS tip, in the 2nd row "Cross sectional view" & the groove of a record (even the CraigWorm can't ping my confusion into focus: it actually flumoxes me more).

    [​IMG]

    The diagram I'm trying to refer to, is a b&w box, below the two big blue tip shapes, on this page.. https://snvinyl.co.uk/epages/eshop9...h=/Shops/eshop943300/Products/SHELTER201-SASB
     
  16. The Captain

    The Captain ~~~~~~~~~~

    Im sorry... what? Jeepers as if my brain wasn't already flummoxed!
     
  17. Craig B

    Craig B Re:trophile

    It is the cross-sectional view row of this table that should be most telling. The S.A.S. (MicroRidge) on the far right can be seen to more easily fit into the narrowest undulations within the groove (i.e. the highest frequencies), whereas, the biggest round conical on the left hasn't a chance of doing as well. Either can sound really good (i.e. there are other factors), especially so, at low to midrange frequencies, however, only the MicroRidge can accurately read all that the groove has to offer, especially so, at high frequencies and as end of side approaches (where groove undulation density approaches maximum).

    The brassiere fitment simile above was a bit tongue in cheek (Oh, Matron!), but just imagine a young Dolly Parton and Farah Fawcett attempting to try on the same 'A'-cup bra in a chilly storefront change room. Dolly represents the big conicals, vs. Farah as the svelte MicroRidges (with long wearing nibs on). This analogy assumes infinitely firm breasts and that 'A'-cup represents the highest frequency recorded on record. Neither of them will find a perfect fit, however, Ms. Fawcett would have walked out looking less like she was sporting pasties on a string rather than something that resembles a proper fitting bra.

    [​IMG]
     
  18. The Captain

    The Captain ~~~~~~~~~~

    Craig, if I try & mix analogous images of dolly bird's breeasts into the equation, my brain overloads & decides to shut down entirely.

    The only thing that makes sense, is the notion that the SAS profile sits deeper in the groove. Get that.

    Imagining how it does this with its weird "diagonal-shape-but-with-odd-side-wing-bits".. is for me unachievable, as Im so confused with shapes, & cross sections (this funny shape image: from which -angle- you see realtive to the groove.. is not stated). Imagine an infant trying to push a star shape toy, through a triangular slot. For 4 fkn hours already.

    Nevermind. Can I just ask on a separate note. One thing I noticed going from sphericals to a denon dl110, was surface noise lessened alot. Great this. And so I made sure to continue with an eliptical when trying my current Shelter 201.

    This factor is important to try & retain: so if I went 'upward' in performance to an SAS would this factor likely be similar to a spherical, or morelike ( even better maybe?) than an eliptical.

    Appreciated, Capt
     
    Craig B likes this.
  19. Craig B

    Craig B Re:trophile

    From a purely information retrieval point of view, SAS will represent a similar improvement over your elliptical, as your ellipticals were over the prior spherical. No need to opt for any of the more expensive cantilever materials (boron, sapphire, etc.) in order to realize this.

    Surface noise, or the audibility of same, can be down to other factors. One big one is where the peak in the cartridges combined electrical and mechanical resonances occur. This has as much to do with perceived surface noise as it does perceived frequency balance. It isn't surprising to me that you've found the Denon DL110 to have lessened your perception of surface noise vs. running a (presumed to be) standard MM prior (was it a Linn 'yellow' Basik?) into your Naim NA322 boards. Nor does it surprise me that your Shelter 201 works well into your Naim, whether or not you got round to reducing the value of the input loading capacitors. Many MMs will exhibit an overly emphasized 'presence region' in their frequency response when presented with more loading capacitance than is necessary, along with comes emphasized surface noise. Naim's choice of 470pF was always OTT even with those vintage MM cartridges that had 400 to 500pF suggested (including tonearm wiring, remember).
     
  20. The Captain

    The Captain ~~~~~~~~~~

    Hi Craig, ok great thanks understanding most of this. It was goldrings before the denon, a 1022 iirc. So that sounds interesting then as a proposition. Now I know what Jico actually is, it says of the SAS to be a boron cantilever: now this aspect -is- far easier to imagine of course. So, in you're estimation then I should see a really good 'return' in performance buying a boron SAS jico stylus? I can do the poly 322 board caps to suit then too maybe.

    One thing I did "achieve" with my current TT, long before with a goldring 1042, was an uncanny sense of space around each instrument. Vox most noticeably. Like you could hear the space around & behind, in which they were recorded. A subtle thing.. but really added to the show. Alas I couldn't afford to replace that stylus. That added aspect though, presumably, was just additional groove info retrieval would you say? But it came from a spherical stylus ( unless Im mistaken). I wonder if that sort of thing, is usual for a next-step-up stylus, & maybe I could get that again. Hmm.

    Most helpful, Capt
     

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