farfromthesun
pfm Member
I don't think you're vile.
Lib Dems - Tories in Disguise
- Thread starter Snufkin
- Start date
I don't think you're vile.
Not if it is accompanied by major changes to address what is actually wrong. Revoking article 50 is the only correct action for an MP in a representative democracy because they all, with the possible exception of a tiny number of the more mentally challenged, are perfectly well aware that it is in the best of interests of the majority of their constituents if this is done. Nobody that is passably well informed believes the 99% will benefit from brexit.
The problem is that as best we can judge at present the libdems don't intend to do anything other than continue broadly as we are but within the EU. This does not address the problem that caused brexit and so is almost certainly not going to heal anything much.
richardg
Admonishtrator
Thanks. It always helps the self-esteem coming on here.
Hang on a goddamn minute!
gavreid
Pretty Words...
I totally agree that leaving under any kind of Tory inspired arrangement will solve nothing - and there's no other game in town. My position has always been that referrendum was too close to move way from the status quo, especially counting for the groups that were not consulted. I began to realise about a year ago, however, that by not adopting a compromise position (akin to Labour's) that the right wing was gaining ground rapidly as positions became further polarised and entrenched.
Jim Audiomisc
pfm Member
Agreed. *IF* they understood and were able to get the needed EU reforms that would help us to deal with the divisions and the way many understandably feel 'left behind' and exploited. But I see no real sign of that. Hence I come back to our best *practical* course being that of the LP. To seek another referendum on a choice between a *defined* deal for 'leave' and 'remain' on the basis of pushing for reforms Here and across the EU. That would avoid having people claim the result was 'undemocratic' and hand all the previous 'leave' voters over to the extreme headbangers or a mire of hopelessness and dispair.
It is not enough to say staying in will be better, we have to clearly work at *making* it better. Not give up before we start.
Seanm
pfm Member
So it seems they have definitely uh finessed their position on revoke:
"The party’s preferred choice remains a second referendum, but revocation would happen if the party won a majority, which is unlikely."
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...opulists-for-heart-and-soul-of-britain-brexit
So what was the point of all that then?
Does anyone know what policies have come out of the conference? Apparently Swinson's speech only mentioned a watered-down Labour policy on using "wellbeing" as an economic measure.
Apart from that we've learned that Swinson is still A-OK with austerity and thinks the Tories are fiscally reckless, and that calling for HIV tests on all migrants is a "very nuanced" position.
Did I miss anything?
"The party’s preferred choice remains a second referendum, but revocation would happen if the party won a majority, which is unlikely."
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...opulists-for-heart-and-soul-of-britain-brexit
So what was the point of all that then?
Does anyone know what policies have come out of the conference? Apparently Swinson's speech only mentioned a watered-down Labour policy on using "wellbeing" as an economic measure.
Apart from that we've learned that Swinson is still A-OK with austerity and thinks the Tories are fiscally reckless, and that calling for HIV tests on all migrants is a "very nuanced" position.
Did I miss anything?
gavreid
Pretty Words...
Tony L
Administrator
To do in a sentence what Labour have entirely failed to achieve in three years of dithering and pandering to far-right nationalism, Bennite daydreaming and incoherent fence-sitting and state a singly coherent moral position that is entirely in tune with their membership and electorate. I eagerly await the Labour conference where my guess no such clarity of vision will emerge as the party is just such an incoherent mess with so many hopelessly conflicting interests and power cliques.
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
Tony, I suspect any party of any size will attract a wider diversity of views in its membership. The LibDems are simply still able to benefit from being a small party. A narrow church, if you will. But I think if they were to grow in line with their ambitions, they would accumulate a much broader range of views. And a ‘my way or the highway’ approach to that would probably put an upper limit on potential growth.
Bananahead
pfm Member
I would revoke article 50 tomorrow. And then put the army on the streets to shoot the rioters.
Tony L
Administrator
They aren’t bogged down with all the historical ideology and baggage of either Labour or Conservative and have a far more simple centrist/internationalist position. A far more modern and dynamic viewpoint IMHO beholden neither to billionaire backers and donors nor trade union dinosaurs or class warriors of either political extreme. They occupy an entirely different area of the political map and occupy it quite clearly whilst the two old parties are tearing themselves apart.
ff1d1l
pfm Member
Can you arrange for gove, banks, rees mogg, the johnson, cameron, and cummings to be in on that?
droodzilla
pfm Member
You're right. I was being a mardarse.
richardg
Admonishtrator
How's France, anyway?
Seanm
pfm Member
Is it this sentence?
"The party’s preferred choice remains a second referendum, but revocation would happen if the party won a majority, which is unlikely."
Can you spell out the singly coherent moral position to me? Or fill me in on the policies that demonstrate this clarity of vision? Because it looks to me like they just devoted a whole conference to a single stunt, which they fluffed, and then ran into the sea.
What makes you think they're not beholden to billionaire backers?
Lee T
pfm Member
You missed nothing Sean. Swinson is Farage for those who want to cancel Brexit. Aiming higher up the demographic to pander to the middle class remainers instead of the knuckle dragging leavers Farage represents. She is a Tory, a May-lite puppet for the Lib Dems & if anyone is sucked into this nonsense they need professional help.
If she gained office tomorrow & revoked without going to the public for confirmation it could bring far worse consequences than any no deal brought about by Boris.
I watched her today. She comes over like some naïve uni student on a mission to impress her class mates. It won't wash as her voting record would be ripped to peices by the greens & Labour if a GE was anounced. Covering up her failings for this country by jumping on the Brexit bashing band wagon will be short lived.
Tony L
Administrator
I’ll be far beyond amazed if the Lib Dems don’t take seats and Corbyn’s Labour lose them come a GE. FWIW I’m not a huge fan of Swinson, and she certainly wouldn’t have been my choice to lead the party, but you can’t deny she’s doing rather better than Corbyn who looks set to lose around 30 seats, maybe more! Sure, the LDs are just a minor party on the ascendancy rather than a major one in obvious decline, so all they can hope for is to hold the balance of power, which I’m pretty certain they will. The rest is huff and bluster.
A far more interesting question is whether Corbyn will lead Labour to their worst result in the party’s history? One for next week’s thread, and quite likely IMHO (hence all the rabid attack dogs and trolls gunning for the Lib Dems). The Labour conference next week will be an interesting watch for sure. I wonder how the leader’s speech will go down in the room given so many MPs in his own party can’t stand him! I expect much grimacing! #DoorstepChallenge
sean99
pfm Member
You're a broad-church type of a leader, then ?
Robert
Tapehead
They are in effect Tories. In fact worse than Tories because at least with a Tory, you can usually see the axe coming.
Their record in both local and national government is abysmal, and they are so utterly opportunist and without scruples that pretty much anyone can join, like that nice liberal Dr Lee:
Their record in both local and national government is abysmal, and they are so utterly opportunist and without scruples that pretty much anyone can join, like that nice liberal Dr Lee:
Lee T
pfm Member
Anyone voting for the LD'S come a GE need to look deep inside themselves before doing so.
Making bold statements & expecting to pull them off once in power is naïve at best as the world just doesn't work this way. May attempted it & failed miserably & now Boris is making the same mistake. It doesn't work & only leaves those who voted for them holding their head in their hands in despair.
The Labour approach has the bigger picture in mind, not just resetting everything back to how it was as it failed the many in this country & is unworkable for future generations.
If a 3rd of the Labour manifesto was workable it could get this country back to some sort of sanity.