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Let's have a debate, name your Top 3

Agree on The Clash. Glenn Miller is totally derivative crap IMHO

Glenn Miller derivative of what? He didn't invent swing, but he pioneered a new sound and new arrangements. He and others such as the Dorsey's, Artie Shaw,Harry James, Herman, Goodman et.al. were the pop icons of their day.
 
But to baldly state that the Beatles were 'strangely devoid of poetic lyrics, political protest or social comment in their songs' is quite extraordinary. You see no poetry in Penny Lane.. or Yesterday, or Yes It Is, or In My Life, Here, There and Everywhere,Here Comes the Sun, Hey Jude or any of the numerous other songs with which they effectively reshaped the popular song? No social comment in Rain, Eleanor Rigby, Lady Madonna, All You Need Is Love? Certainly not a 'protest' group, but certainly subtly political in many songs, without being overtly so.

All good songs and I’ll give you Penny Lane but no I don’t see much quality of poetry in those songs. I don’t see much social comment or political protest either. Maybe that’s quite extraordinary. Maybe you never studied poetry. For me that’s the kind of stuff that makes a great song, rather than a great pop song, at which the Beatles excelled. Dylan, Simon and Garfunkel etc put the Beatles in the shade on all fronts as great songwriters for me. Did they make as exhilarating pop music? No. But I’m happy to go to them if I was handing out awards.
 
......I find they were strangely devoid of poetic lyrics, political protest or social comment in their songs....

In My Life Poetic Lyrics
Rain Social Comment
Taxman Political Protest
She's Leaving Home Social Comment
Dr Robert Social Comment
A Day In The Life Social Comment
Lucy In The Sky Poetic Lyrics
I Am The Walrus Poetic Lyrics
Revolution Political Protest and Social Comment
Piggies Social Comment
Eleanor Rigby Social Comment and Poetic Lyrics
All You Need Is Love Social Comment and Political Protest
Strawberry Fields Poetic Lyrics
Penny Lane Poetic Lyrics
Yesterday Poetic Lyrics
Bungalow Bill Social Comment and Political Protest
Blackbird Social Comment and Political Protest
Julia Poetic Lyrics
Nowhere Man Social Comment


Shrug....
 
Glenn Miller derivative of what? He didn't invent swing, but he pioneered a new sound and new arrangements. He and others such as the Dorsey's, Artie Shaw,Harry James, Herman, Goodman et.al. were the pop icons of their day.
They just blandified the black music of the day. Ellington, Count Basie were the real innovators & there were numerous New Orleans show bands who predated them in offering Jazz for white people.
 
In My Life Poetic Lyrics
Rain Social Comment
Taxman Political Protest
She's Leaving Home Social Comment
Dr Robert Social Comment
A Day In The Life Social Comment
Lucy In The Sky Poetic Lyrics
I Am The Walrus Poetic Lyrics
Revolution Political Protest and Social Comment
Piggies Social Comment
Eleanor Rigby Social Comment and Poetic Lyrics
All You Need Is Love Social Comment and Political Protest
Strawberry Fields Poetic Lyrics
Penny Lane Poetic Lyrics
Yesterday Poetic Lyrics
Bungalow Bill Social Comment and Political Protest
Blackbird Social Comment and Political Protest
Julia Poetic Lyrics
Nowhere Man Social Comment


Shrug....
I'm afraid songs that make people happy often get accused of lacking depth. I would rather listen to the Beatles than dreary Dylan, at least they can actually sing. Side 2 track 10 of Hard Days Night is one of the greatest songs ever written, it didn't even make the film. That is what genius looks like.
 
They just blandified the black music of the day. Ellington, Count Basie were the real innovators & there were numerous New Orleans show bands who predated them in offering Jazz for white people.


I'm well aware of the history of American music and the way in which whites simultaneously hijacked and suppressed black music. The first LP I bought was early Ellington, though in all honesty his later stuff, and that of Basie, largely escapes me. I've even had the privelege of meeting someone who performed and recorded with Ellington.

The accusation you level at Miller could equally be levelled at the Stones. Hi- jacking and 'whitening' blues etc. As ever, I suppose it comes down to intent.

This seems fair to me: (From Wiki)

Critical reaction
In 2004, Miller orchestra bassist Trigger Alpert explained the band's success: "Miller had America's music pulse... He knew what would please the listeners."[55] Although Miller was popular, many jazz critics had misgivings. They believed that the band's endless rehearsals—and, according to critic Amy Lee in Metronome magazine, "letter-perfect playing"—removed feeling from their performances.[56] They also felt that Miller's brand of swing shifted popular music from the hot jazz of Benny Goodman and Count Basie to commercial novelty instrumentals and vocal numbers.[57] After Miller died, the Miller estate maintained an unfriendly stance toward critics who derided the band during his lifetime.[58]

Miller was often criticized for being too commercial. His answer was, "I don't want a jazz band."[59][60] Many modern jazz critics harbor similar antipathy. In 1997, on a web site administered by JazzTimes magazine, Doug Ramsey considers him overrated. "Miller was a businessman who discovered a popular formula from which he allowed little departure. A disproportionate ratio of nostalgia to substance keeps his music alive."[61][62][63]

Jazz critics Gunther Schuller[64] (1991), Gary Giddins[65][66] (2004) and Gene Lees (2007)[67] have defended Miller from criticism. In an article written for The New Yorker magazine in 2004, Giddins said these critics erred in denigrating Miller's music and that the popular opinion of the time should hold greater sway. "Miller exuded little warmth on or off the bandstand, but once the band struck up its theme, audiences were done for: throats clutched, eyes softened. Can any other record match 'Moonlight Serenade' for its ability to induce a Pavlovian slaver in so many for so long?"[65] Schuller, notes, "[The Miller sound] was nevertheless very special and able to penetrate our collective awareness that few other sounds have..."[68] He compares it to "Japanese Gagaku [and] Hindu music" in its purity.[68] Schuller and Giddins do not take completely uncritical approaches to Miller. Schuller says that Ray Eberle's "lumpy, sexless vocalizing dragged down many an otherwise passable performance."[68] But Schuller notes, "How much further [Miller's] musical and financial ambitions might have carried him must forever remain conjectural. That it would have been significant, whatever form(s) it might have taken, is not unlikely."[68]

Reaction from musical peers
Louis Armstrong thought enough of Miller to carry around his recordings, transferred to seven-inch tape reels when he went on tour. "[Armstrong] liked musicians who prized melody, and his selections ranged from Glenn Miller to Jelly Roll Morton to Tchaikovsky."[69] Jazz pianist George Shearing's quintet of the 1950s and 1960s was influenced by Miller: "with Shearing's locked hands style piano (influenced by the voicing of Miller's saxophone section) in the middle [of the quintet's harmonies]".[70][71] Frank Sinatra and Mel Tormé held the orchestra in high regard. Tormé credited Miller with giving him helpful advice when he first started his singing and song-writing career in the 1940s. Mel Tormé met Glenn Miller in 1942, the meeting facilitated by Tormé's father and Ben Pollack. Tormé and Miller discussed "That Old Black Magic", which was just emerging as a new song by Johnny Mercer and Harold Arlen. Miller told Tormé to pick up every song by Mercer and study it and to become a voracious reader of anything he could find, because "all good lyric writers are great readers."[72] In an interview with George T. Simon in 1948, Sinatra lamented the inferior quality of music he was recording in the late forties, in comparison with "those great Glenn Miller things"[73] from eight years earlier. Frank Sinatra's recording sessions from the late forties and early fifties use some Miller musicians. Trigger Alpert, a bassist from the civilian band, Zeke Zarchy for the Army Air Forces Band and Willie Schwartz, the lead clarinetist from the civilian band back up Frank Sinatra on many recordings.[74][75] With opposite opinion, fellow bandleader Artie Shaw frequently disparaged the band after Miller's death: "All I can say is that Glenn should have lived, and 'Chattanooga Choo Choo' should have died."[76][77] Clarinetist Buddy DeFranco surprised many people when he led the Glenn Miller Orchestra in the late sixties and early seventies. De Franco was already a veteran of bands like Gene Krupa and Tommy Dorsey in the 1940s. He was also a major exponent of modern jazz in the 1950s.[78] He never saw Miller as leading a swinging jazz band, but DeFranco is extremely fond of certain aspects of the Glenn Miller style. "I found that when I opened with the sound of 'Moonlight Serenade', I could look around and see men and women weeping as the music carried them back to years gone by."[79][80] De Franco says, "the beauty of Glenn Miller's ballads [...] caused people to dance together."[81]
 
I'm well aware of the history of American music and the way in which whites simultaneously hijacked and suppressed black music. The first LP I bought was early Ellington, though in all honesty his later stuff, and that of Basie, largely escapes me. I've even had the privelege of meeting someone who performed and recorded with Ellington.

The accusation you level at Miller could equally be levelled at the Stones. Hi- jacking and 'whitening' blues etc. As ever, I suppose it comes down to intent.

This seems fair to me: (From Wiki)
Apologies if it sounded as though I was having a go, I wasn't but I just cannot think of a single occasion where I would choose Miller over the earlier innovators. I am not really a fan of The Stones but then I am not a massive blues enthusiast. I really like the Strayhorn/Ellington work, the tribute album '& his mother called him Bill' is beyond category. Ellington did have the advantage of alto sax genius Johnny Hodges in his orchestra & there is nothing Miller could do about that.
 
No worries WF. Oddly, I found Hodges style a little too 'fluid' for my tastes, although along with a lot of other virtuoso players, he really stands out on Ellington's early recordings. If you don't already have it.. seek out Ace of Hearts AH 23 The Duke in Harlem.
Whatever might be said about Miller, he apparently said himself that he didn't want a 'jazz band'. He was I think trying to create a very competent Dance Band, and famously, he was searching for a new sound, which he achieved by including a clarinet with the saxes. He was also very interested in 'arranging', rather than just playing tunes. Moonlight Serenade is of course Miller's 'signature' tune, but if you can.. have a listen to Sunrise Serenade. I read somewhere that he did that as an exercise or somesuch whilst studying music.
 
No worries WF. Oddly, I found Hodges style a little too 'fluid' for my tastes, although along with a lot of other virtuoso players, he really stands out on Ellington's early recordings. If you don't already have it.. seek out Ace of Hearts AH 23 The Duke in Harlem.
Whatever might be said about Miller, he apparently said himself that he didn't want a 'jazz band'. He was I think trying to create a very competent Dance Band, and famously, he was searching for a new sound, which he achieved by including a clarinet with the saxes. He was also very interested in 'arranging', rather than just playing tunes. Moonlight Serenade is of course Miller's 'signature' tune, but if you can.. have a listen to Sunrise Serenade. I read somewhere that he did that as an exercise or somesuch whilst studying music.
Hodges just has the best tone ever IMHO. Miller is just far too controlled for me, I like a bit more grit. Ellington/Strayhorn are unsurpassed in terms of arranging, the way they could write with particular performers in mind is stunning.
 
I'm just not familiar with the later Ellington stuff. My interest in 'big' bands mostly ends with the swing era, though I like some of the earlier stuff too. I can't quite hear the attraction of people like, say Stan Kenton. I'll have to investigate.

As for Sax tone.. Paul Desmond for me.. closely followed by the likes of Coleman Hawkins and Stan Getz. But then my musical tastes are very wide and mostly driven by melody. I'm not especially knowledgeable about jazz. I just come across stuff I like... though I did buy the complete D'Agostini series recently.. to try to 'hedurmacate' myself a bit.. So far I have learned that I missed the excellent Shirley Horn completely first time around, and that I just don't get the likes of Eric Dolphy. Most of the albums remain unplayed, as listening time is a bit limited these days, but I'm steadily working through them.

I rarely find music 'interesting' in the way that some do. Probably because I don't understand musical theory so don't consciously recognise things that may be clever, or experimental etc. I respond to music on a much more emotional level and it either grabs me or it doesn't.
 
In My Life Poetic Lyrics
Rain Social Comment
Taxman Political Protest
She's Leaving Home Social Comment
Dr Robert Social Comment
A Day In The Life Social Comment
Lucy In The Sky Poetic Lyrics
I Am The Walrus Poetic Lyrics
Revolution Political Protest and Social Comment
Piggies Social Comment
Eleanor Rigby Social Comment and Poetic Lyrics
All You Need Is Love Social Comment and Political Protest
Strawberry Fields Poetic Lyrics
Penny Lane Poetic Lyrics
Yesterday Poetic Lyrics
Bungalow Bill Social Comment and Political Protest
Blackbird Social Comment and Political Protest
Julia Poetic Lyrics
Nowhere Man Social Comment


Shrug....

If you think Julia, Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds or I Am The Walrus would win any poetry prize I guess there's no arguing with you! Nor if your political protest comes in the form of All You Need Is Love.

Rain social comment? It's about it raining isn't it?

Nowhere Man social comment? I obviously need enlightening. It's John Lennon navel gazing.

This is my point. All great songs, but why do we insist on praising them for their literary genius. I just don't get it. Thankfully the weird protective narrow-mindedness of most Beatles fans doesn't put me off their wonderful music.

Jonathan

PS. I'll give you She's Leaving Home, Elanor Rigby, A Day In The Life and Penny Lane ;)
 


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