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Leben CS300XS vs Naim Black separates

R

ryder

pfm Member
Gents, I'll make it clear. I am very pleased with my Naim 282/250DR/Hicap DR driving some Harbeth Super HL5 Plus. It is my end game system and I have no urge to upgrade or climb up the Naim ladder.

The thing is I'm curious about the Leben CS300XS. How different does this thing sound when compared to the Naim separates, be it 282/250DR or 252/300DR. I am aware the Leben will not have the bass power and muscular presentation of the Naim separates when pushed to the edge at moderate to high levels. However, will the Leben sound a lot more exquisite in the midrange and treble, sounding more delicate, airy and open than the Naim? something magical with the Leben tubes?

I briefly listened to the Leben CS600 drive some big Harbeth many years ago and that amp surely sounded airier and more open in the midrange and treble than all solid-state alternatives including the Naim 32.5/135s which sounded warmer/darker/more restrained in comparison.

Is the CS300XS a collectible item worth considering? I'm just thinking if i should just buy it and display the amp on the shelf as a spare if I'm not listening to it. It looks good on display too, like a decorative item with its retro look.

Or is there a solid-state integrated that sounds like the CS300XS? I'm not really keen on tubes if given the choice.
 
Some years ago I bought a very beautiful Leben CS600 which sounded very 'tubey' but musically very unremarkable; in fact it was smooth but very, very boring. Apparently the little CS300XS is quite a different animal so I'll be interested to know how this thread pans out.
 
Leben 300 is better than 600 imo

But carefull choice of speakers needed

Doubt SHL5+ will become a good match
 
Hi

That's the journey I am on at the moment. I have both Naim 200/202/FC/NAPSC/NACa5 and have had a Leben 300 (f) for just over a week. The 300f has been Leben's main production model for about 4 years but I think they do still make the XS to order. I'd been hankering after an integrated amp for a while and had listened to a few amps with a more valve based sound.

In terms of comparison - the Naim is more dynamic but less detailed, quicker paced but captures less of the tone of voices and instruments, more rhythmic but less airy.

The Leben has a sweeter sound but also, for me, captures the detail of the performances and the expressiveness of the instruments far more than the Naim. It gos beyond PRAT to offer a more expressive sense of the music. It also captures the dynamics of drums in a way I've not heard before, the touches of the sticks on the skins, the brushes on cymbals, the different parts of the kit. With the Naim it was more rhythm than texture. That said, one option I was considering was to step up to the 282/250 level to see if it gave more of what I was after: but that would have set me back the best part of £10k.

Part of the impact of the Leben is that I am using it with Devore Super 8 speakers. These gave a new crispness and detail to the Naim by comparison with the Neats I'd had previously but the Leben makes them even more expressive.

I'd previously spoke to the team at Audio Counsel in Manchester who sell the Audion 300B valve Amps. They were saying that they had a larger number of Naim owners move to the Audions after coming in to upgrade their Naim kit. I tried the Audion but couldn't get a speaker to match them that worked in my listening room and within my relatively limited budget. If I'd had a few more £k I may have gone for the the Audion and Audio Note J speakers but the Leben/Devores has hit the spot and taken me a few steps forwards from the Naim kit which I've had and loved for a decade or so.

The Leben hasn't quite got the spaciousness of the Audion and may not quite convey the emotional heft I got from the 300B but the amp and speaker combo I've got now is so communicative and gives a level of detail and quality of sound that I feel I've reached the end of the journey - for now.

I do play more jazz and acoustic music than heavy rock. If I was more into rocking out I may go for the energy of Naim. I played Nevermind yesterday and heard the different guitars overdubbed on Teen Spirit clearly for the first time, the balance of clean and distorted sounds but, while I got this sense of the layers of sound, the whole lacked the aggression I get when playing this on the Naim boxes. On the other hand, I then played Sun Kil Moon's April and was bowled over by the different textures of acoustic guitars and the expressiveness of the voices: it really was like hearing the record for the first time

For jazz, my main listening these days, the detail of the instruments, the crisp detail of the bass and the textures of drums on the Leben takes me to a place the Naim never reached.Tony William's drums on Miles Smiles were a revelation: I'd always enjoyed them but the Leben reveals that mix of power and nuance I'd not really been aware of before now.

In essence the Naim gave me power, the Leben gives me subtlety. Right now, the latter is what I'm after.

Kevin
 
kjb said:
Hi

That's the journey I am on at the moment. I have both Naim 200/202/FC/NAPSC/NACa5 and have had a Leben 300 (f) for just over a week. The 300f has been Leben's main production model for about 4 years but I think they do still make the XS to order. I'd been hankering after an integrated amp for a while and had listened to a few amps with a more valve based sound.

In terms of comparison - the Naim is more dynamic but less detailed, quicker paced but captures less of the tone of voices and instruments, more rhythmic but less airy.

The Leben has a sweeter sound but also, for me, captures the detail of the performances and the expressiveness of the instruments far more than the Naim. It gos beyond PRAT to offer a more expressive sense of the music. It also captures the dynamics of drums in a way I've not heard before, the touches of the sticks on the skins, the brushes on cymbals, the different parts of the kit. With the Naim it was more rhythm than texture. That said, one option I was considering was to step up to the 282/250 level to see if it gave more of what I was after: but that would have set me back the best part of £10k.

Part of the impact of the Leben is that I am using it with Devore Super 8 speakers. These gave a new crispness and detail to the Naim by comparison with the Neats I'd had previously but the Leben makes them even more expressive.

I'd previously spoke to the team at Audio Counsel in Manchester who sell the Audion 300B valve Amps. They were saying that they had a larger number of Naim owners move to the Audions after coming in to upgrade their Naim kit. I tried the Audion but couldn't get a speaker to match them that worked in my listening room and within my relatively limited budget. If I'd had a few more £k I may have gone for the the Audion and Audio Note J speakers but the Leben/Devores has hit the spot and taken me a few steps forwards from the Naim kit which I've had and loved for a decade or so.

The Leben hasn't quite got the spaciousness of the Audion and may not quite convey the emotional heft I got from the 300B but the amp and speaker combo I've got now is so communicative and gives a level of detail and quality of sound that I feel I've reached the end of the journey - for now.

I do play more jazz and acoustic music than heavy rock. If I was more into rocking out I may go for the energy of Naim. I played Nevermind yesterday and heard the different guitars overdubbed on Teen Spirit clearly for the first time, the balance of clean and distorted sounds but, while I got this sense of the layers of sound, the whole lacked the aggression I get when playing this on the Naim boxes. On the other hand, I then played Sun Kil Moon's April and was bowled over by the different textures of acoustic guitars and the expressiveness of the voices: it really was like hearing the record for the first time

For jazz, my main listening these days, the detail of the instruments, the crisp detail of the bass and the textures of drums on the Leben takes me to a place the Naim never reached.Tony William's drums on Miles Smiles were a revelation: I'd always enjoyed them but the Leben reveals that mix of power and nuance I'd not really been aware of before now.

In essence the Naim gave me power, the Leben gives me subtlety. Right now, the latter is what I'm after.

Kevin
Click to expand...
Thanks for the detailed post which was much appreciated. I have both 202/200 and 282/250DR and can relate a lot to your experience with the former.

It is true the 202/200 is lacking in tone. The 282/250 builds on the tone of voices and instruments and for this reason music sounds more realistic and believable but detail and airiness remain fairly similar between the two. The 282/250 just sounds more forward, expressive and dynamic than the 202/200. Nevertheless, I suspect the Leben CS300XS is still more detailed than the Naim. Things such as plucking of guitars and drums sounding a little more realistic with the Leben due to the added detail.

Yes, agreed that Naim excels in rhythm and pace (which I particularly like). The 202/200 does not possess the texture of the 282/250 but I can understand your stand. It is true you need to pay quite a bit more to move up from the 202/200 and there are alternatives around. Although the 282/250DR may deliver the things that you seek, I still believe the Leben will sound airier and more detailed, the same experience that you are getting right now with the CS300f.

Similarly I listen to a lot of fusion jazz and acoustic music (guitars, piano). I concur that the Naim will excel in power and Leben in subtlety. With dynamic music(jazz fusion, pop or rock) played at moderate to high SPLs, the Naim 282/250DR will likely sound more satisfying than the Leben. Bass quality of the Naim will likely trounce the Leben. The power, punch and dynamic drive of the bass with Naim is likely superior. On the other hand, the Leben will excel with subtle potrayal of music as finer detail and nuances are revealed more prominently apart from music sounding airier and more open in the treble.

Perhaps I'll put this 300XS into the shortlist. It may not be too suitable for the Harbeth Super HL5 Plus but i don't intend to use it as my main amp. Will see how it goes.

Cheers.
 
Shuggie said:
Some years ago I bought a very beautiful Leben CS600 which sounded very 'tubey' but musically very unremarkable; in fact it was smooth but very, very boring. Apparently the little CS300XS is quite a different animal so I'll be interested to know how this thread pans out.
Click to expand...

PerF said:
Leben 300 is better than 600 imo

But carefull choice of speakers needed

Doubt SHL5+ will become a good match
Click to expand...

Thanks for the thoughts. Good to know the CS300XS sounds better than the CS600. However, from what I was told the type of tubes used with the amp will play role as well. And these tubes aren't exactly cheap.

From memory, the CS600 is quite large. Apart from sound quality I prefer the looks of the CS300XS.
 
Personally found my Plus to sound better with power where dynamic music is concerned. Otherwise they get harsh quickly, bass can be less than appeasing too. Just my experience...

Though the Leben/ Harbeth combo has its fans on fora, IIRC most enjoy more acoustic/ ensemble type music.
 
ryder said:
T
Perhaps I'll put this 300XS into the shortlist. It may not be too suitable for the Harbeth Super HL5 Plus but i don't intend to use it as my main amp. Will see how it goes.

Cheers.
Click to expand...

Across the forums (and at Leben rooms at hi-fi shows) the Leben is often paired with Harbeth 30.1's.

I've been really impressed with the 300f - and it is £500 less than the XS as, apparently, the GE JAN-6197 it uses are cheaper. It has plenty of pace and punch and very tight bass.

Kevin
 
I bought a Leben CS300X a few years ago second-hand and it was a really lovely thing. Paired beautifully with my Meridian CD player and the headphone amp on it was exceptional. Completely silent on switch-on too. If I wasn't so wedded to *the Naim sound* I'd probably've kept it. Ultimately not the type of amp to rock out to, IME, but detail, subtlety and yes, bass, all there in spades, and aesthetics to die for. Only (slight) issue was it relied on Mullard tubes, and I would imagine they are as rare as rocking horse shit these days. Part of me still misses it.

All I know of the CS300XS is that it's the same size and has the same functionality as the 300X, but the valves used are different. I can only imagine they've found something that works as well as the Mullards because if they have, then I'm sure it sounds fantastic.
 
JonR said:
I bought a Leben CS300X a few years ago second-hand and it was a really lovely thing. Paired beautifully with my Meridian CD player and the headphone amp on it was exceptional. Completely silent on switch-on too. If I wasn't so wedded to *the Naim sound* I'd probably've kept it. Ultimately not the type of amp to rock out to, IME, but detail, subtlety and yes, bass, all there in spades, and aesthetics to die for. Only (slight) issue was it relied on Mullard tubes, and I would imagine they are as rare as rocking horse shit these days. Part of me still misses it.

All I know of the CS300XS is that it's the same size and has the same functionality as the 300X, but the valves used are different. I can only imagine they've found something that works as well as the Mullards because if they have, then I'm sure it sounds fantastic.
Click to expand...

Forgive the distraction from the OP but what speakers did you use the 300X with? (I have kept mine!)
 
RichardA said:
Forgive the distraction from the OP but what speakers did you use the 300X with? (I have kept mine!)
Click to expand...

I've been using Kudos baby floorstanders for a number of years, X2s and subsequently X3s. It's been a while and my memory is poor but I believe I used the Leben mainly with the X2s and they worked remarkably well, considering the power output of the Leben is much smaller than your average Naim amp. In fairness I live in a small house and don't have much space to fill, but all the same, I did not have to turn up the volume all that much for the sound to fill the room.

Edited to add: that should read "output of the Leben", not "input" - duly corrected. Sorry for the typo.
 
JonR said:
All I know of the CS300XS is that it's the same size and has the same functionality as the 300X, but the valves used are different. I can only imagine they've found something that works as well as the Mullards because if they have, then I'm sure it sounds fantastic.
Click to expand...

I think that is certainly the case with the 300f.

Kevin
 
my 5+ annis like to be driven...well driven to be at their very best. I prefer SS class A as the compromise to do that best in most circumstances. The 300 needs more sensitive speakers, the 5=+ need more ooomph up them.
IME/O.
 
Probably not what the OP wants to hear but there are lots of amps out there that will thrash Naim amps... both valved ones and solid state ones.

Try an early class A Krell for the best of both worlds... tighter, better bass, more dynamic and PRaT than Naim and the spaciousness and air of valves. Or a Radford valve amp such as an STA25 or better still an STA100 which are valve amps with solid state like control... as is eg EAR 509 monoblocks... then there's Audio Research valve power amps.
 
Arkless Electronics said:
Or a Radford valve amp such as an STA25 or better still an STA100 which are valve amps with solid state like control... as is eg EAR 509 monoblocks... then there's Audio Research valve power amps.
Click to expand...

Yes, I think this is the way to go if you really want to use valve amps with Harbeths. I never heard them with Radfords, but I'm sure that would be an excellent match. I've heard ARC and owned VTL (with an ARC pre); the latter were the best of all worlds, but it's a lot of money to spend and I found I was coming up against the limits of the speakers, so eventually I sold the VTL. I decided that the search to find the ideal match between SS control and valve texture for Harbeths involved an expenditure out of balance with the speakers, so in the end I decided to stick with my Unison Research hybrids I have had for a long time now, then finally I said goodbye to Harbeths.
 
Not had Naim amps in my house, but I do have a CS300XS. I’d like to try some other amps but just can’t seem let go of the Leben, I’m sure I’d regret it if I did.

I reckon the SHL5+ would be ok with the Leben at low and normal volume levels. It’s an easy to drive speaker which I think stays above 6 Ohms.
 
Thanks for all thoughts which are appreciated.

Arkless Electronics said:
Probably not what the OP wants to hear but there are lots of amps out there that will thrash Naim amps... both valved ones and solid state ones.

Try an early class A Krell for the best of both worlds... tighter, better bass, more dynamic and PRaT than Naim and the spaciousness and air of valves. Or a Radford valve amp such as an STA25 or better still an STA100 which are valve amps with solid state like control... as is eg EAR 509 monoblocks... then there's Audio Research valve power amps.
Click to expand...

I am quite selective in selecting amplifiers for the Harbeth Super HL5 Plus. I tried not less than 7 amplifier combinations when I had the older SHL5 non-plus and the Naim turned out to be one of the best sounding amps for the Harbeth. I've used Krell KAV-300i in my system before and listened to my mate's Krell FPB-300 driving Audio Physic Avantera. The Krell integrated does not have the refinement of the Naim and I disregarded the big Krell amps due to the following;

1. The power amps are huge and heavy. These days I favour amps which are easy to handle (around 15kg or less)
2. Reliability issues. My friend's FPB-300 experienced caps leakage. After repair, he sold it and went with something else more reliable (and better sound too).

Personally I like the Naim-Harbeth combination, specifically the 282/250DR/HicapDR. Others will have their own preference as to how good music should sound like to his/her ears. There are few who prefer their Harbeth driven by Rega amps but I find the combination to be rather dull and unexciting.

As for valve amps, the Leben is an afterthought. I don't really favour valves..
 
ryder said:
As for valve amps, the Leben is an afterthought. I don't really favour valves..
Click to expand...

This renders the thread rather pointless, and I begin to question the time I spent typing. How can I reclaim it? What was its purpose? Will it find another destiny in some higher mission I am yet to understand?
 
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