Labour Leader: Keir Starmer VII

[Seeker_UK]

I'm not sure it will

It won't. This is an example of how PR would have affected the result.

https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk...have-looked-with-proportional-representation/

The Conservatives would have got 77 fewer seats but would still remain the largest party in Parliament.

 

[Tony L]

It won't. This is an example of how PR would have affected the result.

https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk...have-looked-with-proportional-representation/

The Conservatives would have got 77 fewer seats but would still remain the largest party in Parliament.

Without the parliamentary majority there is no way in hell they could have trashed and gang-raped the country the way they have over the past 12 years. All the alt-right extremism would have been blocked, the corruption called out, the economic terrorism defused, the cruelty diluted. They may have been the largest party, but they would have had no mandate to rule as the electorate simply did not deliver them one. It never has done.

 

[Seeker_UK]

Without the parliamentary majority there is no way in hell they could have trashed and gang-raped the country the way they have over the past 12 years. All the alt-right extremism would have been blocked, the corruption called out, the economic terrorism defused, the cruelty diluted. They may have been the largest party, but they would have had no mandate to rule as the electorate simply did not deliver them one. It never has done.

I agree it would hold some in check, but if Labour and Conservatives are as similar as some pfmers would have us believe, then there would still be a lot of agreement on many things and some of what's happened since 2015 would have still happened. That's a long way off from "killing tories".

And that's assuming the LD's wouldn't automatically go into coalition with the Conservatives.

 

[Tony L]

I agree it would hold some in check, but if Labour and Conservatives are as similar as some pfmers would have us believe, then there would still be a lot of agreement on many things and some of what's happened since 2015 would have still happened. That's a long way off from "killing tories".

I suspect economically we’d have balanced somewhere around the centre (i.e. way, way, way to the left of where we are in Truss’s Sterling gamble free-fall). The gains would have been elsewhere, e.g. a far larger green lobby, far stronger defence of human rights and civil liberties, the reversal or at least real dilution of Brexit given it is clearly unworkable for economic benefit etc, plus a more progressive taxation and better state infrastructure. Just removing the endemic corruption of the Tories would make a huge difference, the whole dynamic would change once dark money and dodgy offshore donors couldn’t simply buy our politics the way they have for the past 12 years. We’d certainly not be the dumpster fire the Tories have created.

The other key thing is PR would enable change. The old parties would gradually erode as their are built on fake foundations. New ones would emerge to fit new needs. New voices would emerge, some being heard for the first time as huge swathes of the population are genuinely disenfranchised. It is hard to predict exactly where we’d end up, but I trust a legitimate representative consensus exponentially more than the elite minority rule we have now. I’ll certainly take the risk as what we have has so obviously failed.

 

[ks.234]

So is the Tory Party. Where is the 3 part AJ series on that?

We don’t need a documentary to know that the Tories are racist, it’s in their DNA. I expect a Labour Party to be made of different stuff. If your response to learning that the Labour Party is racist is “so what?”, that’s your choice.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

I've explained my position and I accept its downsides (as it happens I'm in a Lab/LD marginal).

That said, the framing in my previous post was unduly negative.

The positive framing is that the only way to influence Labour to be more progressive is to withold one's vote. For most disaffected Labour voters, that means voting Green, in the hope that the loss of potentially key voters in some seats pulls Labour to the left, just as UKIP pulled the Tories to the far-right.

It might be a slim hope but, from where I'm sitting, so is the idea that some of the most awful people in politics will develop a social conscience, and a sense of basic human decency, if they gain power.

In your position, I, too would vote Green. It makes sense in that specific context. I live in a relatively safe Labour seat (c16k majority in 2019) and would consider the same, but it hasn't always been Labour and our MP is standing down at the next GE, so it'll be an unfamiliar and untested candidate. So I'm a little wary.

I'm not sure it will but, even if it does, it's just the beginning of the revitalisation of democracy that is needed. Another would be the dissolution of the coalition currently known as the Labour Party. Add to that wholesale constitutional reform and overhaul of the media... etc. PR can be the start of that process but it's clearly not sufficient (and I'm not even sure it's strictly necessary but I'm willing to throw the dice on it).

PR would mean that disaffected LP members could break away and form a new party and still hope to gain some seats in Parliament. So the dissolution of that uneasy coalition could be a force for good, or at least, for better. FPTP makes breakaway party politics a mugs game. If we want left wing politics to have any sort of traction, we need PR - not just to get the Tories out, but to encourage genuinely left wing politicians to stand up and, literally, be counted.

 

[ks.234]

We all know the Labour right undermined Corbyn, how many times is that going to be repeated? It doesn’t excuse the Labour left inventing criticisms of the party and Starmer. That only undermines the party and helps the tories. Priority #1 should be to remove the tories, throwing a vote away on wasters like the Greens or the poodle party won’t help dislodge the tories.

Some need to forget about Labour, get on with setting up a hard left party and see what the electorate makes of it.

It is disingenuous to say criticisms of Starmer have been ‘invented’. Criticisms are quite genuine. If you believe that the party that campaigned against the
Labour Party for two general elections will offer what you voted for in those elections, that’s up to you. If you believe that a party that has shown itself to be institutionally racist and fundamentally democratic will offer an alternative to the racist and undemocratic Tories, that is up to you. If you believe that Labour can spend more on police, NHS, Schools, the environment, Care, infrastructure, and cut spending at the same time, again, that’s up to you, but the observation that Starmer’s Labour is pro Tory, racist, undemocratic, and economically illiterate is not invention, it is evidential, and as for being fundamentally undemocratic, it is felt by personal experience of being made unwelcome and disenfranchised in my own party for the sin of freezing my nuts off campaigning for a Labour victory in the winter of 2019

 

[Spraggons Den]

The problem with disaffected Labour supporters voting for one of the smaller parties is it lets the Tories win.

This is what happened in 2019. Labours vote went down by 8% (from 40 to 32% of total turnout). The tory vote only went up by 1.5% so it looks like the mobile Labour votes went to the LDs (up 4%), the Greens and SNP ((up 1% each).

So it was the diminishing main opposition vote and the quirks of the FPTP which created the knocking down of the red wall which resulted in an 80 seat Tory majority - not the widespread movement of Labour votes to Conservative.

 

[Tony L]

The problem with disaffected Labour supporters voting for one of the smaller parties is it lets the Tories win.

Best way to get PR IMO:

If in a Tory/Lab marginal vote Labour.
If in a Tory/Lib marginal vote Lib.
If in a Lab/Lib marginal vote Lib.
If in a Lab/SNP or PC marginal vote SNP or PC.
If in a seat the Greens can possibly win vote Green.

A hung progressive parliament will be far more effective and democratic than a Lab majority.

In safe seats your voice is irrelevant so just vote according to which national voteshare figure you’d like to increase. This is where I am and I’ll vote Green.

 

[Seeker_UK]

A hung progressive parliament will be far more effective and democratic than a Lab majority.

I think that a single party majority is more effective in getting legislation through than a hung parliament.

Who do you think will make up the "progressive" majority coalition that will be essential if (a) it is to be effective in putting any "progressive" legislation forward and voted through and (b) avoid an election being called again in 6 months because (a) doesn't happen?

When you say "effective", do you actually mean votes through stuff you agree with?

 

[ks.234]

The problem with disaffected Labour supporters voting for one of the smaller parties is it lets the Tories win.

This is what happened in 2019. Labours vote went down by 8% (from 40 to 32% of total turnout). The tory vote only went up by 1.5% so it looks like the mobile Labour votes went to the LDs (up 4%), the Greens and SNP ((up 1% each).

So it was the diminishing main opposition vote and the quirks of the FPTP which created the knocking down of the red wall which resulted in an 80 seat Tory majority - not the widespread movement of Labour votes to Conservative.

The extent of the Labour Party defeat in 2019 was down to the campaign against the Labour Party by those now in charge of the Labour Party. It is the right wing of the Labour Party that is responsible for the size of the Tory majority.

Voting for the a Labour Party that campaigned against the Labour Party values in the hope that it will bring about Labour Party Values is absurd

 

[Woodface]

The last time we had a coalition? Do I need to spell it out? Austerity, manifesto promises broken, the Clegg Cameron bromance. Spare me that.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

The last time we had a coalition? Do I need to spell it out? Austerity, manifesto promises broken, the Clegg Cameron bromance. Spare me that.

Might we hope a future coalition would be unlikely to feature the Tory party though?

 

[Seeker_UK]

Might we hope a future coalition would be unlikely to feature the Tory party though?

That would be possible but, if as some here reckon, that the LP are as bad as the Conservatives, then that would be as bad, shirley?

 

[Enfield boy]

Best way to get PR IMO:

If in a Tory/Lab marginal vote Labour.
If in a Tory/Lib marginal vote Lib.
If in a Lab/Lib marginal vote Lib.
If in a Lab/SNP or PC marginal vote SNP or PC.
If in a seat the Greens can possibly win vote Green.

A hung progressive parliament will be far more effective and democratic than a Lab majority.

In safe seats your voice is irrelevant so just vote according to which national voteshare figure you’d like to increase. This is where I am and I’ll vote Green.

We know how good the Libs are, Davey was a senior member of that coalition. Haven't seen or heard much of him lately but as he's rich he's perhaps cool with the non-budget?

 

[Tony L]

We know how good the Libs are, Davey was a senior member of that coalition. Haven't seen or heard much of him lately but as he's rich he's perhaps cool with the non-budget?

He’s been calling for a recall of parliament and has been nothing but scathing about the budget. In fact at every point he has been in front of Starmer’s reactions both with Johnson and Truss. Calling for resignation first, calling for recall first.

Here is his Twitter account. Judge for yourself. Lots I agree with, lots I don’t.

I’m not a Davey fan, I thought Layla Moran was an exponentially better leadership candidate, but you have to admit he’s well ahead of Starmer on most things. Plus there is no way in hell a four hour documentary exposing systemic bullying and racism could be made about the LDs!

 

[Seanm]

That would be possible but, if as some here reckon, that the LP are as bad as the Conservatives, then that would be as bad, shirley?

It's all speculation of course, but the Corbyn/Brexit years were full of ad hoc alliances and showed pretty clearly where the real parliamentary faultlines are. It's easy to imagine Labour splitting, and the right going into coalition with LDs and Tories to exclude the left. LDs, Labour right and Conservatives would certainly ally with a Faragist party before doing a deal with the left. All parties and press are in agreement that the left is simply illegitimate, so ought to be manageable even if the new left party were the largest overall.

I don't really see PR changing much on its own: the problem is a toxic media-politics class that has things pretty much sewn up. It would likely coalesce again around any new system that didn't deal with the fundamentals.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Plus there is no way in hell a four hour documentary exposing systemic bullying and racism could be made about the LDs!

True enough. They're not interesting enough for more than 30 minutes of anybody's time

 

[Seeker_UK]

It's all speculation of course, but the Corbyn/Brexit years were full of ad hoc alliances and showed pretty clearly where the real parliamentary faultlines are. It's easy to imagine Labour splitting, and the right going into coalition with LDs and Tories to exclude the left. LDs, Labour right and Conservatives would certainly ally with a Faragist party before doing a deal with the left. All parties and press are in agreement that the left is simply illegitimate, so ought to be manageable even if the new left party were the largest overall.

I don't really see PR changing much on its own: the problem is a toxic media-politics class that has things pretty much sewn up. It would likely coalesce again around any new system that didn't deal with the fundamentals.

Are you saying that PR wouldn't change the overall makeup of political philosophies, just that they would regroup and no longer need to be part of current party 'coalitions'?

 

[Tony L]

True enough. They're not interesting enough for more than 30 minutes of anybody's time

I’ve never been a member of any political party in my life, so no direct experience, but I get the impression the Lib Dems are quite mind-numbingly and tediously democratic. I suspect they vote on what type of pen to use.