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Labour Leader: Keir Starmer VII

Discussion in 'off topic' started by Seeker_UK, Jun 21, 2022.

  1. gavreid

    gavreid pfm Member

    History tells us that Parliament is a dead end to progressive transformation of society. There isn't a country in the World where it has yet been achieved.
  2. sean99

    sean99 pfm Member

    ??? How then did the top 10 most socially progressive countries become so ? I don't remember any recent revolutions (peaceful or otherwise) in any of these places:
    1. Norway
    2. Finland
    3. Denmark
    4. Iceland
    5. Switzerland
    6. Canada
    7. Sweden
    8. Netherlands
    9. Japan
    10. Germany
    PsB and Kirk like this.
  3. gavreid

    gavreid pfm Member

    Largely WWII. I don't see the planet being saved without some kind of revolution, probably bourgeois in nature in the first instance. It's capitalism itself that is responsible for the destruction.
  4. Sue Pertwee-Tyr

    Sue Pertwee-Tyr neither here nor there

    Why can't we do both? And how do we discuss what to do once we've rid ourselves of the Bigger Evil, if we can't even agree on a tactic to oust the Bigger Evil? Where I live, and where most English voters live, it's pretty much a stark choice between Labour and Tory. Calling it a diversion tactic, unconscious or otherwise, is to belittle discussion of the only valid option most of us have to bring to bear right now.

    The message I'd like to get across is 'I'm lending you this vote to get rid of the Tories; don't **** it up. But more than that, I and my fellows don't really want what you're offering, so this loan is very much a short term thing unless you start listening to us'. That's quite a complex message for a tick in a box to convey - I'm not sure the message carrier has the necessary bandwidth.

    So yes, let's talk about next steps after the Bigger Evil is done with, that's a less depressing conversation than this one, for sure. How about the 'I'm considerablay more politicallay sophisticated than yow' faction start the ball rolling by sharing their thoughts on how we set about achieving that?
  5. notaclue

    notaclue pfm Member

  6. Brian

    Brian Eating fat, staying slim

    We can’t discuss what comes next until the current lot are gone. How to get to that is something I tried more than once but you wouldn’t have it.

    We mostly all agree Labour is now right wing, so how about discussing your solution? Who can form an electable left wing party to challenge the tories? I ask you because I believe you and a few others have a greater knowledge than I do of the Labour party. Hell man, I had to google the Creasy woman to find out why she is so despised.

    As ever the big picture escapes nationalists. Apparently a minority in Scotland don’t support Labour anymore because Labour does not support breaking up the UK. How stupid is it expecting Labour to support such a dumb thing?

    Oh, and stop moaning on about the tories, you’re helping them to a majority over Labour.
  7. droodzilla

    droodzilla pfm Member

    Quick update. Part 3 of the AJ doc was up on YouTube for a while today but is now marked as private. The planned broadcast of the episode did not og ahead either. It looks like the Labour Party, or one of the people named in the documentary, is making strenuous efforts to stop this material from being aired. Presumably threats of legal action are involved.
  8. stevoknevo

    stevoknevo Member

    That's an entirely reductionist argument that points the finger at SNP voters for Labour getting into, and staying in, bed with the Tories at both the independence referendum and currently at council level to stop the SNP having control of councils, and chasing away what used to be a huge voting base for them as they've drifted ever rightwards - that base never abandoned the Labour Party, the Labour Party abandoned them.
    Yet still the Labour Party/voters point the finger and say "it's you who are facilitating a Tory majority!" on the one hand, and on the other refusing to do any deals with the SNP and daring the SNP not to support them if push comes to shove in keeping the Tories out, whilst some balloon on stage at conference compares the SNP to the far right fascist Brothers of Italy. Then you've got Ian Murray, the only Labour MP in Scotland, mimicking Truss and saying the SNP should be ignored whilst Anas Sarwar has actively courted the Orange Order (a sectarian organisation regardless of what they purport themselves to be)

    I know many former card carrying Labour members in Scotland who won't forgive or forget and wouldn't give the Labour Party the steam off their pish if they were freezing to death, trying to blame them for handing the Tories a majority when Scotland hasn't voted Tory in 65 years is only fomenting the problem - get your own house in order.
    kendo, farfromthesun and droodzilla like this.
  9. Seanm

    Seanm pfm Member

    We can't do both because the lesser evil argument is designed to shut down debate, not develop it. The only context in which I've ever encountered it has been Labour doing something awful and getting stick for it. The only purpose of the argument - certainly outside of an election - is to point fingers and shut people up, it's not to suggest things that might actually be done.

    I'm not claiming any particular sophistication I'm just reacting to something I find infuriating. As for what to do after a Labour win, all I know is that Labour will only act progressively as a result of pressure from below. That pressure needs to come from a broad base, which means more people - Labour members especially - need to understand what the leadership is actually like. Their awfulness needs to be sung from the rooftops. It's *really* unlikely at this stage to stop them getting into power but it might make a difference once they get there.
    ks.234 likes this.
  10. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    The worrying thing is that Labour is quite deliberately marginalising the membership, so the idea of sending a message to the leadership is flawed because the leadership is setting itself up to insulate itself from the membership.
    droodzilla likes this.
  11. Kirk

    Kirk pfm Member

    Decent speech today: credible, reasonable and full of common sense. Takes Labour forward. Owen thought it was "fine" and Sharon said it was a "start". High praise from the comrades.
  12. Brian

    Brian Eating fat, staying slim

    One post is all I will make in response. I have no doubt I won’t agree with nationalists on much, if anything at all.

    Your first paragraph...It is irrational to expect Labour to support breaking up the UK at the 2014 independence referendum.

    As for nationalists facilitating a tory majority. Yes, they are. In 2015, Labour seats in Scotland were reduced from 41 to 1, anyone can see reducing Labour seats by 40 makes it more difficult for Labour to achieve a majority in a GE. I really don’t understand how losing 40 seats makes it easier for Labour to win a GE.

    I accept everyone can choose what to support/vote for, however, those who decide to vote a seat away from Labour that the party previously held ( e.g. in 2015 )need to stop moaning about the UK tory govt because...
    1. As nationalists i don’t think they give a damn about the UK
    2. They are helping the tories to a UK majority so what are they moaning about anyway
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2022
  13. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    There’s your coalition of chaos right there,

    Both out of their depth- look at their faces.
    sideshowbob and mandryka like this.
  14. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    That is very annoying. I was planning to watch it later!
  15. Brian

    Brian Eating fat, staying slim

    You keep saying this but it is nonsense and untrue. On the contrary, it looks very much like your own way of attempting to shut down debate because you can’t accept anything other than a hard left Labour party. Such a party does not exist, that’s the reality.

    I will ask again. You aren’t happy with the Labour party. Who can form a left wing party capable of challenging the tories? Are all Labour MPs right wing fundamentalists these days? What about those purged?
  16. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    Regarding the now pulled part 3 of the Al Jazeera Labour Files documentary there is a synopsis from someone who managed to watch it here (Twitter). Hopefully we’ll all get to see it soon.
    droodzilla likes this.
  17. Spraggons Den

    Spraggons Den pfm Member

    Thatcher was undoubtedly more radical but how about, and this institution has been in the news recently, the independence of the Bank of England. Millions continue to benefit from the introduction of the minimum wage and I know quite a few who got into work for the first time due to Browns initiatives. Also, the smaller nations enjoy a greater degree of autonomy today thanks to the last Labour government.
    MikeMA likes this.
  18. Spraggons Den

    Spraggons Den pfm Member

    In space no one can hear you scream.
  19. gavreid

    gavreid pfm Member

    The minimum wage just sets up a race to the bottom and undermines collective bargaining, that's why the Tories like it. Labour lost Scotland too so that one's a bit rich as well
    ks.234 likes this.
  20. monkfish

    monkfish Grubby Tory enabler

    Grubby Tory enabler ?

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