Labour Leader: Keir Starmer VI

[Seeker_UK]

... an imagined target audience...

If what you are suggesting is true, that she knew what she was saying, then there would be evidence that a significant chunk of the Electorate that Labour are going to target agree with that.

I don't think the media-savvy, focus-group Labour Party that you portray would waste that sort of effort on an imaginary demographic.

Understandably, you'd like to think a lot of traditional Labour supporters don't think like that, but perhaps they do.

 

[Seanm]

If what you are suggesting is true, that she knew what she was saying, then there would be evidence that a significant chunk of the Electorate that Labour are going to target agree with that.

I don't think the media-savvy, focus-group Labour Party that you portray would waste that sort of effort on an imaginary demographic.

Understandably, you'd like to think a lot of traditional Labour supporters don't think like that, but perhaps they do.

The audience for these campaigns is always imagined, one way or another: that’s not to say there aren’t some correspondences with actual audiences.

I mean, there are obviously people who will welcome proposals about police shooting Them on sight and also kicking Their doors in at 3am. Big audiences for Johnson’s letterbox stunt and his Savile comments too. This isn’t in itself an argument for saying these things, unless you don't understand or care about the consequences of saying them, which I think is the case here.

 

[ks.234]

I've not read before this post, so please forgive me if my answers are out of context.



I responded extensively and carefully at the time of this incident, on here. I'm not going to go to that detail again, but research into the Police National Decision Model, and the 10 risk factors that accompany it, would prove very useful in adding depth to your suggestions. It's very easy to say 'what if' after such an incident. Sure, at a strategic level lessons were learned, but at an operational level...

Your questions re if this person in an actual terrorist - you need to look up Common Law 1977 for use of force. The other question you posed I'm not going to answer. Being 'foreign' enough?'

How about using 'what risk, threat and harm does the suspect intend or posses?'



My training was fine. I understood my responsibilities and the consequences. I also understood that to be given a responsibility of this nature was very serious indeed.

Sorry you’ve got dragged into this. It started because I said that Rayner’s call to “shoot first and ask questions later” was a call for extra judicial killing. I did say that that way more mistakes like Menzies might happen but my post was clearly about the stupidity of Rayner’s Trump like populist call, rather than anything else

 

[Enfield boy]

Poor woman, she's just trying to reclaim populism for the hard centre.

 

[Enfield boy]

I have to admit I’m hugely disappointed in Rayner. I thought she was a lot better than this.

And Starmer, Swinson, Clegg, Umunna etc. Ever thought you might be backing the wrong type of horse?

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

And Starmer, Swinson, Clegg, Umunna etc. Ever thought you might be backing the wrong type of horse?

They’ve mostly turned out to be Pushmi-Pullyu’s

 

[Tony L]

And Starmer, Swinson, Clegg, Umunna etc. Ever thought you might be backing the wrong type of horse?

Never Swinson. The only one I ever paid money to back was Corbyn, who turned out the worst of the lot as he sat mute on a fence whilst Farage and the ERG totally destroyed the UK’s future. An utter prick.

PS I am not a good judge of character. I fully admit that. I have the sort of mind that focuses on policy and strategy, I don’t really do social skills.

 

[gavreid]

Is this thread dead? Says it all really. Blackford said what Starmer should have said today - again. When are you members going to get rid of this clown?

‘The police don’t care’: gun violence engulfs Israel’s Arab community


Number of Palestinians killed rises year on year as firearms stolen from Israeli military proliferate on streets

 

[ciderglider]

Disappointed that no-one has mentioned the fine performance by the Man From The Militant in the Erdington by election. He came a respectable third.

 

[Seeker_UK]

Disappointed that no-one has mentioned the fine performance by the Man From The Militant in the Erdington by election. He came a respectable third.

Everyone standing bar Labour and Conservative candidates lost their deposit. Ouch.

 

[ks.234]

Disappointed that no-one has mentioned the fine performance by the Man From The Militant in the Erdington by election. He came a respectable third.

Does ‘trade unionist’ mean ‘The Militant’ in your book?

 

[Tony L]

Labour’s credibility problem continues as pro-Brexit/anti-climate-science gammon Graham Stringer joins Nigel Farage to campaign against Net Zero (Guardian). Why do they keep such dickheads in the party? It is Kate Hoey, Gisela Stewart etc all over again. Yet another Lab/UKIP fusion.

Any allegedly progressive-left party should have absolutely zero tolerance of anti-science conspiracy theorists or alt-right dickheads. Corbyn was clearly way too weak, he just sat on the fence, and if he allows this shite to continue so is Starmer.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Labour’s credibility problem continues as pro-Brexit/anti-climate-science gammon Graham Stringer joins Nigel Farage to campaign against Net Zero (Guardian). Why do they keep such dickheads in the party? It is Kate Hoey, Gisela Stewart etc all over again. Yet another Lab/UKIP fusion.

Any allegedly progressive-left party should have absolutely zero tolerance of anti-science conspiracy theorists or alt-right dickheads. Corbyn was clearly way too weak, he just sat on the fence, and if he allows this shite to continue so is Starmer.

I am astonished that pro-Palestinian types and the left were purged from a party that brands itself as leftward leaning, yet the likes of Hoey, Stringer and all the others were not, and still aren't.

 

[Enfield boy]

Perhaps we're only permitted the illusion of democracy?

 

[Tony L]

I am astonished that pro-Palestinian types and the left were purged from a party that brands itself as leftward leaning, yet the likes of Hoey, Stringer and all the others were not, and still aren't.

It just fits with my now long-held view that Labour is a right-wing authoritarian party that stands against any democratic reform or political accountability. Throughout my lifetime there has always been a degree of factionalism from a rather old fashioned 1970s cartoon ‘left’ within (Benn, Hatton, Livingstone, Corbyn etc), but they are always absolutely crushed by the party establishment right who just want a seat at the Tory feeding trough and business as usual.

Labour can not be viewed as a opposition party. They are just the establishment. An entity allowed to exist to create an illusion of democracy. I stand against Labour just as firmly as I do the Tory party or the monarchy. They will never represent me even if at all times there are a handful of decent and honest MPs lurking on the back benches.

 

[droodzilla]

Labour’s credibility problem continues as pro-Brexit/anti-climate-science gammon Graham Stringer joins Nigel Farage to campaign against Net Zero (Guardian). Why do they keep such dickheads in the party? It is Kate Hoey, Gisela Stewart etc all over again. Yet another Lab/UKIP fusion.

Any allegedly progressive-left party should have absolutely zero tolerance of anti-science conspiracy theorists or alt-right dickheads. Corbyn was clearly way too weak, he just sat on the fence, and if he allows this shite to continue so is Starmer.

It's all my fault.

I campaigned to get Stringer elected as the councillor for Whalley Range, Manchester*, in the late 1980's.

If I knew then what I know now...

*During the campaign, I canvassed one U. Baines, whom I later realised had been a member of The Blue Orchids (and early Fall).

 

[Seanm]

It just fits with my now long-held view that Labour is a right-wing authoritarian party that stands against any democratic reform or political accountability. Throughout my lifetime there has always been a degree of factionalism from a rather old fashioned 1970s cartoon ‘left’ within (Benn, Hatton, Livingstone, Corbyn etc), but they are always absolutely crushed by the party establishment right who just want a seat at the Tory feeding trough and business as usual.

Labour can not be viewed as a opposition party. They are just the establishment. An entity allowed to exist to create an illusion of democracy. I stand against Labour just as firmly as I do the Tory party or the monarchy. They will never represent me even if at all times there are a handful of decent and honest MPs lurking on the back benches.

I don’t know about Stringer but typically these people turn out to have been parachuted in to safe seats at the behest of party grandees, usually against the will of local members and in order to block a left wing candidate. The Labour Party is internally extremely anti-democratic with regard to candidate selection, worse than the others: it’s a big part of why they’re so corrupt, factional and generally unaccountable and unrepresentative, which in turn is a big part of the democratic deficit in the country as a whole.

The irony is that every single time someone attempts reform, by pushing for things like open selection, the same people decrying the current situation start going on about members being unrepresentative, pushing good people out of their jobs, not focusing on fighting the Tories etc. Every single time.

 

[Tony L]

The irony is that every single time someone attempts reform, by pushing for things like open selection, the same people decrying the current situation start going on about members being unrepresentative, pushing good people out of their jobs, not focusing on fighting the Tories etc. Every single time.

Yes, I can see your point, and I’ve been guilty of making such arguments (though I am not and could never be a Labour voter). The problem the party has and will always have is that there is simply no way to represent the whole anti-Tory vote. That vote encompasses everything from the unionised mass labour upon which the Labour movement originally grew from, ideological socialists, the socially conservative centre-left etc through to progressive liberals/libertarians such as myself. It is the equivalent of herding cats and it can never work.

This is obviously a very deliberate piece of systems design by the Tory ruling class. By enforcing a FPTP two party system where the scope of a monolithic “opposition” is simply so vast it can’t ever unify and other anti-establishment votes are discarded at a local level they can maintain their centuries old minority elite rule. My annoyance is the Labour Party is always too dumb and slow-moving to see this. They will never seek systemic reform. The only way forward is to remove the system that is designed to return endless Tory parliamentary majorities without any legitimate mandate from voters. That will require a degree of multi-party unity and Labour are always the blockage to my eyes. They will never be anything other than Tory enablers.

 

[Seanm]

Yes, I can see your point, and I’ve been guilty of making such arguments (though I am not and could never be a Labour voter). The problem the party has and will always have is that there is simply no way to represent the whole anti-Tory vote. That vote encompasses everything from the unionised mass labour upon which the Labour movement originally grew from, ideological socialists, the socially conservative centre-left etc through to progressive liberals/libertarians such as myself. It is the equivalent of herding cats and it can never work.

This is obviously a very deliberate piece of systems design by the Tory ruling class. By enforcing a FPTP two party system where the scope of a monolithic “opposition” is simply so vast it can’t ever unify and other anti-establishment votes are discarded at a local level they can maintain their centuries old minority elite rule. My annoyance is the Labour Party is always too dumb and slow-moving to see this. They will never seek systemic reform. The only way forward is to remove the system that is designed to return endless Tory parliamentary majorities without any legitimate mandate from voters. That will require a degree of multi-party unity and Labour are always the blockage to my eyes. They will never be anything other than Tory enablers.

I just don't know that that's the major problem. The Conservatives now and then manage to get together a very strong coalition between e.g. real NF headbangers, "one nation" Christian types, working class pensioner homeowners and wealthy metropolitan liberals (of a certain type). Forging an alliance between disparate groups is just how parliamentary democracy works, whether that's done before people vote, with FPTP, or afterwards, between the parties, with PR.

There's no logical reason why Labour can't bring together the different groups you mention. You have to bear in mind how low the expectations of the left are. Starmer could easily have held onto almost all the left, young people, BAME, and still courted the flags and family types and the Sensibles. The main problem is that this isn't the alliance that his people are interested in: it's a threat to them. Their power base is the press, party apparatchiks, local councillors and parts of the business community. Far better to forge an alliance between them and racist pensioners because it's one that won't demand things this faction don't want offer and won't organise against them.

Much like yourself I'd prefer to never have to think about the Labour Party again, but the internal failings of the party are IMO the country's major constitutional problem, a much bigger problem than FPTP, although I'd be happy to see the back of that too I think.

 

[Spraggons Den]

I received this from the LP this morning, its Reeves' response to yesterday's spring budget:

Today Rishi Sunak could have introduced a windfall tax on oil and gas producers to provide real help to families.

But he didn’t.

Rishi Sunak could have used his Spring Statement to scrap his tax hike and set out a plan to support British business.

But he didn’t.

Instead, the man who lost billions of pounds to fraud has once again proved that he is not fit for the job.

In the wake of his own cost of living crisis, Rishi Sunak has raised tax for households across the country.

While energy and fuel prices spiral, he is laying the burden at the door of working people, with a national insurance hike.

Only Labour has a plan to tackle the Conservative cost of living crisis head on and grow our economy.

We’d give households the help they need - our windfall tax plan for oil and gas giants would ensure that those with the broadest shoulders pay their fair share.

The Conservatives have been in power for 12 years.

With inflation at a 30-year high, and a cost of living crisis with no end in sight, Rishi Sunak had the audacity to exclaim that, “the work starts today.”

Rishi Sunak is out of touch and unfit for office.

The Local Elections in May are an opportunity to make sure everybody knows it.

If this Spring Statement confirms anything at all, it’s that it’s time for a new Britain with Labour.

A better, fairer Britain underpinned by security, prosperity and respect.

Seems fair enough to me - what do the learned folks on here reckon?