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Labour Leader: Keir Starmer V

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Brian said:
The problem with that is what exactly? I can’t really get overly excited about it.

Aside from the costs of dealing with the pandemic, I will yet again point at the flawed ideology of the tory party. We never needed those years of austerity but people voted for it since 2010 in one way or another. I have no idea of the correct way forward, I’m not an economist but I guess the idea from the tory perspective is that after years of kicking the less well off, they’ll look for more ways of kicking them a bit more.
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Well we could just ignore the debt. I suspect that’s the inclination of the serious political parties anyway as to tackle it will risk incurring the wrath of some part of the electorate. The problem with that approach is for the interest payments - currently about £50 billion a year or about a grand for every adult - we get nothing in return.

The left don’t like the subject to be raised because it has been used in the past as a reason for reducing public spending, however, I think it could be used conversely as an arguement for increasing taxes, especially on high earners and luxury goods.

The people alive today have a moral duty to at least start talking about how to deal with this debilitating debt rather than expecting future generations to pick up the tab.
 
Spraggons Den said:
The people alive today have a moral duty to at least start talking about how to deal with this debilitating debt rather than expecting future generations to pick up the tab.
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Even after the most extreme corruption and tax theft we’ve seen from this Tory government along with their incompetence in dealing with coving 19 and the wilful economic and social destruction of Brexit the national debt is not at historic highs as a percentage of GDP. It was worse after WWII and even in that environment Attlee was able to create a world beating health service, make huge education and social reforms, build essential transport infrastructure etc.
 
Tony L said:
Even after the most extreme corruption and tax theft we’ve seen from this Tory government along with their incompetence in dealing with coving 19 and the wilful economic and social destruction of Brexit the national debt is not at historic highs as a percentage of GDP. It was worse after WWII and even in that environment Attlee was able to create a world beating health service, make huge education and social reforms, build essential transport infrastructure etc.
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The Uk had a couple of huge advantages in the immediate post-war years - our industry had learnt to become highly productive and, more importantly, had not been flattened by years of bombing. The US also benefitted from the disarray of other nations infrastructures and ushered in their golden period of prosperity. We still had an empire to sell our goods to on terms favourable to ourselves and within the rules which we set. We no longer have either of these advantages and the contemporary global economy is a much more competitive place.

Finally, the public were more respectful of government and authority in general so we’re more accepting of high rates of income tax ‘to pay for the war’ or for ‘the good of the country’ whereas today a lot of people feel like they have already made plenty of saccrafices recently and really aren’t in the mood for the government to take their remaining disposal income which they planned to use on a holiday, car, garden etc.

I have little faith that contemporary politicians will grasp the nettle as the Right believe in low taxation and the Left are terrorfied of a return to austerity. And so the burden of debt will go onto be shouldered by future generations and it is a selfish and cowardlyact by those of us alive today.
 
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Spraggons Den said:
Well we could just ignore the debt. I suspect that’s the inclination of the serious political parties anyway as to tackle it will risk incurring the wrath of some part of the electorate. The problem with that approach is for the interest payments - currently about £50 billion a year or about a grand for every adult - we get nothing in return.

The left don’t like the subject to be raised because it has been used in the past as a reason for reducing public spending, however, I think it could be used conversely as an arguement for increasing taxes, especially on high earners and luxury goods.

The people alive today have a moral duty to at least start talking about how to deal with this debilitating debt rather than expecting future generations to pick up the tab.
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Isn’t it true the reduction to 5% vat in some cases is going to 12.5% in March 2022?

I have no issue with increasing income tax on high earners, corporation tax, or income tax in general.

You were talking about vat earlier and something about stamp duty. I’d like to see stamp duty abolished. We simply need a massive house building programme to get prices down to realistic levels for those want to purchase and an increase in availability of rental property.
 
Spraggons Den said:
The Uk had a couple of huge advantages in the immediate post-war years - our industry had learnt to become highly productive and, more importantly, had not been flattened by years of bombing.
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Although that was part of the problem. German industry had to be rebuilt from the ground up, so started the post-war period with new machinery, whilst the British had to make do with ageing factories. The Germans also had a cooperative, rather than combative approach to industrial relations, which weren't hampered by the 'us and them' attitude of the British. Added to that Britain was saddled with horrendous war debts, dating back to WWI, but hugely increased by the cost of WWII:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_British_national_debt#World_War_II

'By the end of World War II Britain had amassed an immense debt of £21 billion. Much of this was held in foreign hands, with around £3.4 billion being owed overseas (mainly to creditors in the United States), a sum which represented around one third of annual GDP.'
 
Brian said:
Isn’t it true the reduction to 5% vat in some cases is going to 12.5% in March 2022?

I have no issue with increasing income tax on high earners, corporation tax, or income tax in general.

You were talking about vat earlier and something about stamp duty. I’d like to see stamp duty abolished. We simply need a massive house building programme to get prices down to realistic levels for those want to purchase and an increase in availability of rental property.
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I was suggesting ways for the government to raise revenue in order to reduce the national debt interest payments rather than reducing public spending a la Cameron’s shower. Worth noting they also increased VAT to 20% for that purpose however he never met his goal of getting the annual deficit to zero.

That was only ten years ago and the debt has more than doubled since - what have we got to show for it…..a new rail system, brand new hospitals nationwide, etc …..nope we got sweet fa of any meaningful improvements in either the fabric of the UK or the lives of its citizens.
 
Spraggons Den said:
I was suggesting ways for the government to raise revenue in order to reduce the national debt interest payments rather than reducing public spending a la Cameron’s shower. Worth noting they also increased VAT to 20% for that purpose however he never met his goal of getting the annual deficit to zero.

That was only ten years ago and the debt has more than doubled since - what have we got to show for it…..a new rail system, brand new hospitals nationwide, etc …..nope we got sweet fa of any meaningful improvements in either the fabric of the UK or the lives of its citizens.
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Friends of government on the VIP attack have done very nicely
 
Joe Hutch said:
Although that was part of the problem. German industry had to be rebuilt from the ground up, so started the post-war period with new machinery, whilst the British had to make do with ageing factories. The Germans also had a cooperative, rather than combative approach to industrial relations, which weren't hampered by the 'us and them' attitude of the British. Added to that Britain was saddled with horrendous war debts, dating back to WWI, but hugely increased by the cost of WWII:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_British_national_debt#World_War_II

'By the end of World War II Britain had amassed an immense debt of £21 billion. Much of this was held in foreign hands, with around £3.4 billion being owed overseas (mainly to creditors in the United States), a sum which represented around one third of annual GDP.'
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The framework for Industrial relations in West Germany was imposed on them by the Allies.
 
Tony L said:
Even after the most extreme corruption and tax theft we’ve seen from this Tory government along with their incompetence in dealing with coving 19 and the wilful economic and social destruction of Brexit the national debt is not at historic highs as a percentage of GDP. It was worse after WWII and even in that environment Attlee was able to create a world beating health service, make huge education and social reforms, build essential transport infrastructure etc.
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What transport infrastructure did the Atlee government build?
 
The post-war Attlee govt nationalised the railways in 1947. There had been much damage inflicted by the Luftwaffe and, BR went on to get a bad rep in later years but much of that was arguably engineered to gloss over the corruption of Ernest Marples. Why did the premium bonds get named after him (ok HMPG before transport) rather than tory corruption? Earnie has a kind of poetic quality.
 
ks.234 said:
Not heard of that, can you provide a link please?
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It's something I remember reading about when I did a degree in psychology, but I don't think I still have those books. Google doesn't provide much support for my claim, but there's a paper by Rebecca Zahn of Strathclyde University that covers this area, and it's not behind an academic paywall.
 
Brian said:
Hi Ken, Seriously, I thought everything was hunky dory in your part of the world under The Sturgeon?
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Why would you think that Brian, has austerity ended? I do recall a claim that it had in fact ended but alas, I see little or no sign of that, do you?
Unless of course that claim referred to beneficiaries of government contracts relating to the pandemic...in which case it's a bonanza...for a select few.
 
ciderglider said:
It's something I remember reading about when I did a degree in psychology, but I don't think I still have those books. Google doesn't provide much support for my claim, but there's a paper by Rebecca Zahn of Strathclyde University that covers this area, and it's not behind an academic paywall.
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Many thanks. Unfortunately the full article is not available but the summary suggests that the British military introduced co-determination in the German iron a steel industries and that the failure to introduce similar policies in this country should be considered a missed opportunity.
https://www.mwpweb.eu/RebeccaZahn/publication_1955.html

Why the British would introduce co-determination into industrial relations in Germany, but take an adversarial approach at home is an interesting question?
 
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