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Labour Leader: Keir Starmer V

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Econ 101 agrees with you, however a lot of MPs have property portfolios, the building companies make out like bandits on high house prices and the banks do very nicely out of having people pay for their expensive salaries and offices for 30/35/40 years instead of 25, both banks and property firms donate to the Tory party so don’t expect house building to start anytime soon. It’s almost as though the whole system is corrupt, like Spiv101.
We are also complicit in this racket by pushing up prices in certain areas around certain school catchment areas. Parents seem to think that unless their kids go to an outstanding school they will grow up to be criminals.

Not everything is always blameable on others; I do wish people would think for themselves sometimes.

Neither of my children went to an outstanding primary school, BTW.
 
VAT being paid at the point of purchase does rather capture rich people making extravagant purchases such as Lambos and Bentleys though. Business owners etc may well pay no income tax at all as do a huge number of the self employed.
It hits the poor harder as they spend more of their income. It is regressive.

Closing loopholes & enforcement is always far easier said than done. The tax man is far more interested in making me fill out a self assessment form so they can claw back a couple of hundred quid a year.

I would increase NI for self employed, at least above a certain threshold.
 
Thank you for the extra information Brian.

A couple of things. The collapse of the EU would also mean the collapse of the Eurozone. This would very likely cause a recession, with southern European countries such as Spain, Italy and Greece being worst affected. It would not bode well at all for the less well-off. This is before we even get to the wider global implications.You obviously disagree, but to me that above point seems more likely than not.

Second point, about "joining with brexiters" in wishing for the collapse of the EU (your direct quote). What I actually said was "You are saying there that you agree with the Brexiters who want the EU to collapse". I've highlighted "the" because it's an important distinction, i.e. the Brexiters that wish for the EU collapse, not all Brexiters, as you inferred. A small but very important point, which you appear to have missed.

As for the EU, they are dealing with decisions made by the Tory government. They made their position very clear before Article 50 was triggered, but the Conservatives went ahead and went for the hardest possible Brexit anyway. I'm not sure I'd be wanting to compromise much with a slippery liar like Johnson. This is pretty much on him, not the EU. The EU are certainly not perfect and I agree that reforms could be made, but I'd rather be in with them than out with Johnson and his robbin' men!

Is your 'remain deal disguised as a leave deal' a deal where we stay in the Single Market & Customs Union? I would have thought that would be a pragmatic choice that does honour the close result of the referendum.

Sorry Brian, but that post of yours about the EU came across as extremely negative, to put it lightly.
Fair post and I take your ‘second point’ entirely.
 
Or how about putting a temporary tax on home sales (I realise home buyers are already taxed), in order to reduce the overheating that is currently occurring, and as a means of reducing the national debt. It would stop the crazy gazumping and make homes more affordable for our young people, what’s not to like.
It isn’t likely such a move would be temporary.

A small increase in income tax would suffice. A clampdown on corporations would be great but isn’t all that realistic.
 
A statement which completely contradicts the consensus amongst mainstream economists really does need a bit more to back it up. I think you’ll struggle to find anyone seriously arguing that “things could get tricky” for the UK gvt because of the way markets rate risk.

I didn't mention the UK. Could you link to the economists who advocate continued excessive borrowing, or are you referring to MMT?
 
A clampdown on corporations would be great but isn’t all that realistic.

Agreed. The problem as ever is both parties are riddled with pork barrel politics so we’ll never see an equal playing field for business. The Tories just pocket donations and the Labour/trade unions will also turn a blind eye to corporate tax dodging in order to keep their members in jobs. As such we need to understand the current situation is deliberate, governments actually subsidise companies such as Nissan etc to keep jobs. It is small business and the rest of us that pay the price.
 
I didn't mention the UK. Could you link to the economists who advocate continued excessive borrowing, or are you referring to MMT?
Does anyone advocate “excessive” anything? Here’s a clear account by a mainstream (non-MMT) economist and an economic historian explaining why relatively high levels of government debt (I.e. “excessive”, from an austerian’s perspective) are not something to be afraid of and are in fact good:

https://www.cer.eu/publications/archive/policy-brief/2021/learning-live-debt

On the myth of high levels of government debt “scaring the market” this is good:

Fourth, there is a huge demand for safe assets around the world. Safe assets play a crucial economic role. Some investors seek high, risky returns, but many just want a safe place to store their wealth. That includes businesses looking for somewhere to stash their cash holdings, workers close to retirement and also savers in emerging market economies that lack comprehensive pension schemes or a stable currency. In addition, banks are mandated through regulation to hold safe assets, while official investors such as central banks accumulate foreign reserves in order to stabilise their own currencies and financial markets.

As the strongest economy in the world and the issuer of the world’s reserve currency, US government debt is the benchmark safe asset. But European public debt is also viewed as safe, with a few exceptions. The EU’s first batch of bonds, issued to fund the bloc’s COVID-19 assistance packages, attracted huge interest from financial markets. Prices were high and interest rates low. That demand for safe assets will remain high for the foreseeable future – in fact, the crises since 2008 have only raised it, as the world is perceived to be less safe than before. And even if all advanced economies have much higher public debt after this pandemic, there are very few assets that risk-averse investors can turn to instead. No matter what is happening in the world, European public debt will remain among the safest of assets, keeping borrowing costs low.
 
We are also complicit in this racket by pushing up prices in certain areas around certain school catchment areas. Parents seem to think that unless their kids go to an outstanding school they will grow up to be criminals.

Not everything is always blameable on others; I do wish people would think for themselves sometimes.

Neither of my children went to an outstanding primary school, BTW.


Seems strange that people don’t want pay extra income tax for a good education but will pay way more extra in mortgage payments to get the same result.
 
30 seconds of googling suggests a 1p in the pound raises about an extra £7 billion per year.

So with the current debt standing at £2,100 billion, it will take 300 years to pay off.
The problem with that is what exactly? I can’t really get overly excited about it.

Aside from the costs of dealing with the pandemic, I will yet again point at the flawed ideology of the tory party. We never needed those years of austerity but people voted for it since 2010 in one way or another. I have no idea of the correct way forward, I’m not an economist but I guess the idea from the tory perspective is that after years of kicking the less well off, they’ll look for more ways of kicking them a bit more.
 
Seems strange that people don’t want pay extra income tax for a good education but will pay way more extra in mortgage payments to get the same result.
Yes & often get all moralistic about private education when they are also buying privilege. In reality the ‘good schools’ argument is probably simple snobbery?
 
  1. Ashfield, Natalie Fleet (replacing Gloria de Piero) – Leave vote in 2016: 70.5%
  2. Barrow and Furness, Chris Altree (replacing John Woodcock) – Leave vote in 2016: 57.3%
  3. Bassetlaw, Keir Morrison (replacing John Mann) – Leave vote in 2016: 68.3%
  4. Birmingham Northfield, Richard Burden – Leave vote in 2016: 61.8%
  5. Bishop Auckland, Helen Goodman – Leave vote in 2016: 60.9%
  6. Blackpool South, Gordon Marsden – Leave vote in 2016: 67.8%
  7. Blyth Valley, Susan Dungworth (replacing Ronnie Campbell) – Leave vote in 2016: 60.5%
  8. Bolsover, Dennis Skinner – Leave vote in 2016: 70.4%
  9. Bolton North East, David Crausby – Leave vote in 2016: 58.1%
  10. Bridgend, Madeleine Moon – Leave vote in 2016: 50.3%
  11. Burnley, Julie Cooper – Leave vote in 2016: 66.6%
  12. Bury North, James Frith – Leave vote in 2016: 53.7%
  13. Bury South, Lucy Burke (replacing Ivan Lewis) – Leave vote in 2016: 54.5%
  14. Clwyd South, Susan Elan Jones – Leave vote in 2016: 59.9%
  15. Colne Valley, Thelma Walker – Leave vote in 2016: 50.1%
  16. Crewe and Nantwich, Laura Smith – Leave vote in 2016: 60.3%
  17. Darlington, Jenny Chapman – Leave vote in 2016: 58.1%
  18. Delyn, David Hanson – Leave vote in 2016: 54.4%
  19. Derby North, Tony Tinley (replacing Chris Williamson) – Leave vote in 2016: 54.3%
  20. Dewsbury, Paula Sherriff – Leave vote in 2016: 57.2%
  21. Don Valley, Caroline Flint – Leave vote in 2016: 68.5%
  22. Dudley North, Melanie Dudley (replacing Ian Austin) – Leave vote in 2016: 71.4%
  23. Durham North West, Laura Pidcock – Leave vote in 2016: 55.1%
  24. Gedling, Vernon Coaker – Leave vote in 2016: 56.3%
  25. Great Grimsby, Melanie Onn – Leave vote in 2016: 71.5%
  26. Heywood and Middleton, Liz McInnes – Leave vote in 2016: 62.4%
  27. High Peak, Ruth George – Leave vote in 2016: 50.6%
  28. Hyndburn, Graham Jones – Leave vote in 2016: 65.8%
  29. Ipswich, Sandy Martin – Leave vote in 2016: 56.5%
  30. Keighley, John Grogan – Leave vote in 2016: 53.3%
  31. Kensington, Emma Dent Coad – Remain vote in 2016: 68.8%
  32. Leigh, Jo Platt – Leave vote in 2016: 63.3%
  33. Lincoln, Karen Lee – Leave vote in 2016: 57.4%
  34. Newcastle-under-Lyme, Carl Greatbatch replacing Paul Farrelly – Leave vote in 2016: 61.6%
  35. Penistone and Stocksbridge, Fran Johnson replacing Angela Smith – Leave vote in 2016: 60.7%
  36. Peterborough, Lisa Forbes – Leave vote in 2016: 61.3%
  37. Redcar, Anna Turley – Leave vote in 2016: 67.7%
  38. Rother Valley, Sophie Wilson replacing Kevin Barron – Leave vote in 2016: 66.7%
  39. Scunthorpe, Nic Dakin – Leave vote in 2016: 68.7%
  40. Sedgefield, Phil Wilson – Leave vote in 2016: 59.4%
  41. Stockton South, Paul Williams – Leave vote in 2016: 57.8%
  42. Stoke-on-Trent Central, Gareth Snell – Leave vote in 2016: 64.9%
  43. Stoke-on-Trent North, Ruth Smeeth – Leave vote in 2016: 72.1%
  44. Stroud, David Drew – Remain vote in 2016: 54.1%
  45. Vale of Clwyd, Chris Ruane – Leave vote in 2016: 56.6%
  46. Wakefield, Mary Creagh – Leave vote in 2016: 62.8%
  47. Warrington South, Faisal Rashid – Leave vote in 2016: 51.1%
  48. West Bromwich East, Ibrahim Dogus (replacing Tom Watson) – Leave vote in 2016: 68.2%
  49. West Bromwich West, James Cunningham replacing Adrian Bailey – Leave vote in 2016: 68.7%
  50. Wolverhampton North East, Emma Reynolds – Leave vote in 2016: 67.7%
  51. Wolverhampton South West, Eleanor Smith – Leave vote in 2016: 54.4%
  52. Workington, Sue Hayman – Leave vote in 2016: 61.0%
  53. Wrexham, Mary Wimbury replacing Ian Lucas – Leave vote in 2016: 57.6%
  54. Ynys Môn, Mary Roberts replacing Albert Owen – Leave vote in 2016: 50.9%
 
  1. Ashfield, Natalie Fleet (replacing Gloria de Piero) – Leave vote in 2016: 70.5%
  2. Barrow and Furness, Chris Altree (replacing John Woodcock) – Leave vote in 2016: 57.3%
  3. Bassetlaw, Keir Morrison (replacing John Mann) – Leave vote in 2016: 68.3%
  4. Birmingham Northfield, Richard Burden – Leave vote in 2016: 61.8%
  5. Bishop Auckland, Helen Goodman – Leave vote in 2016: 60.9%
  6. Blackpool South, Gordon Marsden – Leave vote in 2016: 67.8%
  7. Blyth Valley, Susan Dungworth (replacing Ronnie Campbell) – Leave vote in 2016: 60.5%
  8. Bolsover, Dennis Skinner – Leave vote in 2016: 70.4%
  9. Bolton North East, David Crausby – Leave vote in 2016: 58.1%
  10. Bridgend, Madeleine Moon – Leave vote in 2016: 50.3%
  11. Burnley, Julie Cooper – Leave vote in 2016: 66.6%
  12. Bury North, James Frith – Leave vote in 2016: 53.7%
  13. Bury South, Lucy Burke (replacing Ivan Lewis) – Leave vote in 2016: 54.5%
  14. Clwyd South, Susan Elan Jones – Leave vote in 2016: 59.9%
  15. Colne Valley, Thelma Walker – Leave vote in 2016: 50.1%
  16. Crewe and Nantwich, Laura Smith – Leave vote in 2016: 60.3%
  17. Darlington, Jenny Chapman – Leave vote in 2016: 58.1%
  18. Delyn, David Hanson – Leave vote in 2016: 54.4%
  19. Derby North, Tony Tinley (replacing Chris Williamson) – Leave vote in 2016: 54.3%
  20. Dewsbury, Paula Sherriff – Leave vote in 2016: 57.2%
  21. Don Valley, Caroline Flint – Leave vote in 2016: 68.5%
  22. Dudley North, Melanie Dudley (replacing Ian Austin) – Leave vote in 2016: 71.4%
  23. Durham North West, Laura Pidcock – Leave vote in 2016: 55.1%
  24. Gedling, Vernon Coaker – Leave vote in 2016: 56.3%
  25. Great Grimsby, Melanie Onn – Leave vote in 2016: 71.5%
  26. Heywood and Middleton, Liz McInnes – Leave vote in 2016: 62.4%
  27. High Peak, Ruth George – Leave vote in 2016: 50.6%
  28. Hyndburn, Graham Jones – Leave vote in 2016: 65.8%
  29. Ipswich, Sandy Martin – Leave vote in 2016: 56.5%
  30. Keighley, John Grogan – Leave vote in 2016: 53.3%
  31. Kensington, Emma Dent Coad – Remain vote in 2016: 68.8%
  32. Leigh, Jo Platt – Leave vote in 2016: 63.3%
  33. Lincoln, Karen Lee – Leave vote in 2016: 57.4%
  34. Newcastle-under-Lyme, Carl Greatbatch replacing Paul Farrelly – Leave vote in 2016: 61.6%
  35. Penistone and Stocksbridge, Fran Johnson replacing Angela Smith – Leave vote in 2016: 60.7%
  36. Peterborough, Lisa Forbes – Leave vote in 2016: 61.3%
  37. Redcar, Anna Turley – Leave vote in 2016: 67.7%
  38. Rother Valley, Sophie Wilson replacing Kevin Barron – Leave vote in 2016: 66.7%
  39. Scunthorpe, Nic Dakin – Leave vote in 2016: 68.7%
  40. Sedgefield, Phil Wilson – Leave vote in 2016: 59.4%
  41. Stockton South, Paul Williams – Leave vote in 2016: 57.8%
  42. Stoke-on-Trent Central, Gareth Snell – Leave vote in 2016: 64.9%
  43. Stoke-on-Trent North, Ruth Smeeth – Leave vote in 2016: 72.1%
  44. Stroud, David Drew – Remain vote in 2016: 54.1%
  45. Vale of Clwyd, Chris Ruane – Leave vote in 2016: 56.6%
  46. Wakefield, Mary Creagh – Leave vote in 2016: 62.8%
  47. Warrington South, Faisal Rashid – Leave vote in 2016: 51.1%
  48. West Bromwich East, Ibrahim Dogus (replacing Tom Watson) – Leave vote in 2016: 68.2%
  49. West Bromwich West, James Cunningham replacing Adrian Bailey – Leave vote in 2016: 68.7%
  50. Wolverhampton North East, Emma Reynolds – Leave vote in 2016: 67.7%
  51. Wolverhampton South West, Eleanor Smith – Leave vote in 2016: 54.4%
  52. Workington, Sue Hayman – Leave vote in 2016: 61.0%
  53. Wrexham, Mary Wimbury replacing Ian Lucas – Leave vote in 2016: 57.6%
  54. Ynys Môn, Mary Roberts replacing Albert Owen – Leave vote in 2016: 50.9%
Unto them* it shall be given: good and hard.

* Labour seats that went Conservative in 2019
 
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