Labour Leader: Keir Starmer V

[FrancisClement]

Wouldn't it be interesting if SNP fielded candidates south of the border, we could even have a North Britain split. Independence would then include Northumberland, Durham and Cumbria with Scotland. That would suit me as then I could be back in EU via North Britain.

North Macedonia did it so why not, perhaps we need a civil war??????

 

[tqineil]

Wouldn't it be interesting if SNP fielded candidates south of the border, we could even have a North Britain split. Independence would then include Northumberland, Durham and Cumbria with Scotland. That would suit me as then I could be back in EU via North Britain.

North Macedonia did it so why not, perhaps we need a civil war??????

can we include Merseyside and Lancashire too please?

 

[FrancisClement]

No problem

 

[Spraggons Den]

Interlude for some political content:

Back to Starmer.

Difficult to disagree with any of this and good to see him looking and sounding so relaxed unlike when he was leader. Probably due to him being back in his natural habitat at the margins on the back benches somewhere.

Ed Miliband has also made a bit of a resurgence lately and seems to have matured quite a bit. A likely senior member in a Starmer cabinet no doubt as his heart was always in the right place and unlike Corbin has a modicum of leadership talent and of experience of life outside politics.

 

[Joe Hutch]

Interlude for some political content:

Back to Starmer.

Saying someone 'destroys' someone else on YouTube/Twitter/whatever is just such bollocks. No-one is actually 'destroyed', or indeed even vaguely troubled by someone else's rant/considered argument/whatever, especially if those involved have views diametrically opposed views.

 

[ks.234]

modicum of leadership talent

When we talk of leadership qualities don’t we just mean popularity? There was a time when Johnson was praised, and elected, for his talent for leadership. Now that his popularity is waning, his talent for leadership is being questioned.

The truth is that showmanship achieves popularity more readily than leadership or talent more generally.

 

[NeilR]

When we talk of leadership qualities don’t we just mean popularity?

No.

I hope that clears it up for you

 

[ks.234]

No.

I hope that clears it up for you

And yet showmen like Trump and Johnson achieve popularity without having any discernible talent.

 

[Brian]

Lab + LDEM + GRN = an undefeatable 58%

A few self righteous and 'idealogically pure' heads nned knocking together..for the greater good.

The LibDems are naturally closer to the tories than Labour, there were numerous opportunities prior to the 2019 GE for them to consider the greater good and for them it was helping prevent a Corbyn led, Labour govt.

When we talk of leadership qualities don’t we just mean popularity? There was a time when Johnson was praised, and elected, for his talent for leadership. Now that his popularity is waning, his talent for leadership is being questioned.

The truth is that showmanship achieves popularity more readily than leadership or talent more generally.

Of course not. Popularity and leadership qualities are not the same thing.

 

[Joe Hutch]

Have any PMs in living memory had 'talent', for a

And yet showmen like Trump and Johnson achieve popularity without having any discernible talent.

Have any PMs in living memory had any discernible talent for anything other than self-promotion? (My living memory stretches back as far as Wilson. He was clearly a very bright bloke, but what talents did he actually possess? After him, it was downhill all the way).

 

[Spraggons Den]

Have any PMs in living memory had 'talent', for a


Have any PMs in living memory had any discernible talent for anything other than self-promotion? (My living memory stretches back as far as Wilson. He was clearly a very bright bloke, but what talents did he actually possess? After him, it was downhill all the way).

Not true... I remember Blair excelling at keepie-uppie with Kevin Keegan. Let's not forget May's dancing prowess and even auld BJ is very good at arm pit farting apparently.

 

[Tony L]

Difficult to disagree with any of this and good to see him looking and sounding so relaxed unlike when he was leader. Probably due to him being back in his natural habitat at the margins on the back benches somewhere.

He talks a lot of sense for an eccentric old bloke in a naff Christmas jumper on YouTube. Just a shame his spine evaporated when presented with an actual opportunity to stand firmly against the far-right Brexit project. That was the time for protest.

 

[Seanm]

In the end, insufficiently pure, ideologically.

 

[ks.234]

He talks a lot of sense for an eccentric old bloke in a naff Christmas jumper on YouTube. Just a shame his spine evaporated when presented with an actual opportunity to stand firmly against the far-right Brexit project. That was the time for protest.

Unfortunately standing firmly against the Brexit project means standing firmly behind the EU project, and while leaving the EU is an obvious disaster, swinging firmly behind the EU project also has potential disasters.

Part of the issue behind Brexit was that the Remain campaign, such as it was, did not allow for nuance. It demanded 100% allegiance to one side or the other.

If Remain had won in 2016, would that have created a pressure towards ‘ever closer Union’? Would a successful stand against Brexit after 2016 produce economic security? After such a long tussle, the logic of advantage of remaining in the EU would likely raise the question of strengthening our ties to Europe, perhaps giving up our opt-out and joining adopting Euro? Such a move would mean opening ourselves up to the same vulnerabilities that caused so much pain the Greece and others.

The problems faced by Greece saw a big rise in that far right. Standing firmly for the EU has economic and political risks as much as standing against it.

 

[Tony L]

Part of the issue behind Brexit was that the Remain campaign, such as it was, did not allow for nuance. It demanded 100% allegiance to one side or the other.

If Remain had won in 2016, would that have created a pressure towards ‘ever closer Union’? Would a successful stand against Brexit after 2016 produce economic security?

I agree. Brexit was a question so profoundly stupid it should never have been asked. It was obvious we were far better off where we were than where we are now (which was not hard to predict) and in so many ways (economically, human/civil rights, freedom of movement, diversity, security etc etc), but that said there was still a huge amount about the EU that could be improved. This can only happen by getting more progressive voices inside. That was certainly not impossible as the EU is a democratic structure and concept. Recovery from where we find ourselves right now may well be beyond reach as UK politics is neither democratic nor accountable.

 

[ks.234]

I agree. Brexit was a question so profoundly stupid it should never have been asked. It was obvious we were far better off where we were than where we are now (which was not hard to predict) and in so many ways (economically, human/civil rights, freedom of movement, diversity, security etc etc), but that said there was still a huge amount about the EU that could be improved. This can only happen by getting more progressive voices inside. That was certainly not impossible as the EU is a democratic structure and concept. Recovery from where we find ourselves right now may well be beyond reach as UK politics is neither democratic nor accountable.

Yes, I do agree with that, but if we want greater democratic accountability then we need to be able to vote with economic independence. At present we are told that if we vote for any improvements to society, then we the taxpayer will be presented with a hefty bill. At present our democracy is constrained by the threat of demands for payment if we vote for the wrong things. We need to remove that economic threat before we have a free democracy and also, by removing the bill we might go one step further towards making government accountable, rather than government making us accountable for public spending

 

[misterdog]

North Macedonia did it so why not, perhaps we need a civil war??????

Yes >300,000 deaths from the split up of the former Yugoslavia.

That would teach them.

 

[Tony L]

Yes, I do agree with that, but if we want greater democratic accountability then we need to be able to vote with economic independence. At present we are told that if we vote for any improvements to society, then we the taxpayer will be presented with a hefty bill. At present our democracy is constrained by the threat of demands for payment if we vote for the wrong things. We need to remove that economic threat before we have a free democracy

I’m very far from convinced by MMT in the context of a declining and increasingly isolated post-industrial nation such as the UK (as I understand it is Stephanie Kelton). It has a very precise set of parameters and needs a nation with an economy like the USA to work. The UK, Australia, NZ and much of Europe fail at least one of the core requirements (though I forget which). Regardless I’d take the far more open and diverse EU every time even though I fully understand it is a work in progress with much room to improve. I was happy enough where I was. To be honest I am far more concerned about human rights and civil liberties than the economy. This is what is under the most threat at present. It is the immediate concern.

 

[ks.234]

I’m very far from convinced by MMT in the context of a declining and increasingly isolated post-industrial nation such as the UK (as I understand it is Stephanie Kelton). It has a very precise set of parameters and needs a nation with an economy like the USA to work. The UK, Australia, NZ and much of Europe fail at least one of the core requirements (though I forget which). Regardless I’d take the far more open and diverse EU every time even though I fully understand it is a work in progress with much room to improve. I was happy enough where I was. To be honest I am far more concerned about human rights and civil liberties than the economy. This is what is under the most threat at present. It is the immediate concern.

Forget about MMT for a moment and imagine what would happen what is possible once the Tory lie that tax funds spending is overturned.

Also consider that Tory monetarism says that making millions of people unemployed is both necessary and “natural”.

In the case of unemployment overturning Tory monetarism is about human rights.

1. Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
2. Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.
3. Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
4. Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

Universal Declaration on Human Rights
​

Tory Monetarism infects all out political parties. It is an ideology that seeks to preserve vested interest and privilege. The current attack on civil liberties is part of protecting vested interests. Overturning it is a precondition of establishing Human Rights and Civil Liberties

 

[Tony L]

Also consider that Tory monetarism says that making millions of people unemployed is both necessary and “natural”.

I don’t view things in those terms. I am neither a Tory nor a socialist. I play for neither team. To my mind the purpose of a government is to create a very high-quality state infrastructure and to do so via well-implemented, fair and progressive taxation. That being everything from education, healthcare, transport, law and order, defence, social security though to supporting art and music etc. That done it should get the &*** out of the way of those who actually think, innovate and create. They are the ones who generate the employment.

As an example of how far away from conventional thinking I am on this I believe in UBI, but not in the minimum wage (they are related IMO). I am fundamentally anti-authoritarian so believe anyone should have the absolute right to work, offer work, or reject work as they please to their own personal criteria. UBI would bring that mechanism. I believe I have the absolute right to advertise a job cleaning my cat’s litter tray that pays £5 a year and offers absolutely no benefits or perks whatsoever. I’d not ever expect the role to be filled, but I don’t see it is any business of the state whether I offer that opportunity or not.

FWIW a lot of my views are formed by refusing to be punished by the Tory state for being unemployed in the 1980s. The skills and knowledge I have now was largely obtained by basic survival in that environment. The absolute worst of it was the criminalisation of free thought and innovation by not being allowed to make a fiver or a tenner here and there whilst learning skills for themselves. An entirely stupid and counterproductive authoritarianism. I got away with it and came out with a lot of knowledge and experience across many fields which I rely on to this day. I certainly learned exponentially more working in the black economy than I ever did at school!

PS The areas I end up conflicted politically always involve state authoritarianism, and I always end up having to argue on the side of personal freedom. I am sure this is why I could never be a socialist despite believing fundamentally in progressive taxation and solid state infrastructure. I want state functionality without the oppressive control it so often brings.