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Labour Leader: Keir Starmer IV

Discussion in 'off topic' started by droodzilla, Apr 24, 2021.

  1. doctorf

    doctorf left footed right winger

    Link please. It’s very easy to get skewed figures from poorly designed pilots.
  2. miktec

    miktec unissued

    Fill yer boots - and skew to your heart's content:

    Note that the Electoral Commission's finding are slightly more pessimistic than the Gov's own published claim of 96% coverage but they were basing it on actual practice in NI rather than the Gov's (in your words) 'poorly designed pilots':

    "Since 2014 the Electoral Commission has recommended that photo ID should be required in the rest of the UK. In December 2015 the Commission published a report on options for delivering and costing a voter ID scheme. The scheme was modelled on the existing scheme operating in Northern Ireland. It estimated 92.5% of the electorate who would have one of the forms of photo ID it was recommending."

  3. JonR

    JonR Brainwashed Bloke

    Think yourself lucky - he could have called you 'woke' ;)

    Doubtless that would have blown a gasket or two :D
    Brian likes this.
  4. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    Surely the point is that any scheme that has even the potential to discourage people voting is a bad thing? To argue about how many people will be disenfranchised is to miss the point that we should be encouraging more people to vote, not less.

    It should be incumbent on anyone proposing restrictions on voting to demonstrate how such measures enhance democracy, not for us ‘snowflakes’ to demonstrate the opposite.

    The case for voter ID has simply not been made and in the absence of any credible evidence to support the need for voter ID, the only conclusion to be drawn is that the intention behind the move is malign
    Covkxw, miktec, doctorf and 1 other person like this.
  5. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    Terms like snowflake and woke are used by the right wing to marginalise debate and troll opponents without having to supply evidence or reason. Do you approve of such trolling or do you have some evidence based opinion on the matter?
    vince rocker and miktec like this.
  6. doctorf

    doctorf left footed right winger

    I agree with your comments, but I am of the opinion that it is not in any government’s interests to find that their voting system is liable to fraudulent voting.
    It’s a bit like successive governments talking up aspects of the health service, despite figures showing poor performance compared to other countries. They tend to massage or hide figures that don’t fit their agendas.
    But I do take your point that one would not want to discourage people from voting.
    And thank you for being civil in your responses, unlike some arseholes on here.
    ks.234 likes this.
  7. JonR

    JonR Brainwashed Bloke

    Trolling? No.

    ID Cards - I don't have a problem with them personally - citizens of certain EU countries have carried them for years so why shouldn't we? On the other hand I'm also sympathetic to the idea that a polling card should be sufficient. At the moment, however, you can turn up to vote without one. Perhaps they should just make it mandatory.
    Brian likes this.
  8. Seeker_UK

    Seeker_UK I had amnesia once or twice...

    I've never understood the point of issuing the card and then not asking to see it.
    JonR likes this.
  9. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    Many thanks, and I take your point about the use of figures to manipulate politics itself being undemocratic, but the only figures we have on voter fraud is 7 convictions in two General Elections and the EU Referendum.

    Someone far cleverer than me can tell us how many noughts would come after the decimal point when working out what percentage of the turnout of 3 elections 7 convictions represents, but my right sided brain says it will be infinitesimally small.

    If the figures for voter fraud are in actual fact higher, the question should be about why there have not been more convictions, not about delivering ID cards!
    vince rocker, kendo and doctorf like this.
  10. Seeker_UK

    Seeker_UK I had amnesia once or twice...

    Because, as the numbers show, it's quite a hard journey from suspicion to conviction. I should imagine that the evidence required for 'beyond reasonable doubt' given the slightly anonymous nature of the voting process, is a bit hard to collect.
  11. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    But the numbers show that only 160 people were suspected, which is still a microscopic percentage of the turnout in 3 elections.

    The case for voter fraud being a statistically significant problem has not yet been made
    vince rocker, kendo, ff1d1l and 3 others like this.
  12. gavreid

    gavreid pfm Member

    It was never about fraud ks, it's all about disenfrachisement, deliberate disenfrachisement. There's just no point arguing with right wingers, call them out for what they are and leave it there.
    Hook, kendo, sean99 and 2 others like this.
  13. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    Yes, but the point is that if a legitimate motive such as fraud is demonstrably not the motivation behind voter ID, then another malignant motive, be it disenfranchisement or stealing public money to hand it over to Tory donors, is all that’s left.

    Some people will not care about democracy or public money being stolen and/or misused, but being the wokey snowflake I am, I’ll keep on whinging about it at length!
  14. gavreid

    gavreid pfm Member

    A major new study published by Verso shows that “the EHRC investigation did not remotely uphold the dominant public accusations against Labour, while even those limited findings it did make cannot withstand factual or legal scrutiny.”

    Launch today, chaired by Michael Mansfield QC - the book's free so there's no excuse to remain misinformed.

    droodzilla and ks.234 like this.
  15. ff1d1l

    ff1d1l pfm Member that a new daily mail one?
    Last edited: May 13, 2021
  16. Brian

    Brian Eating fat, staying slim

    Brexit ultras. :D

    I’m not surprised at such a response, you do like to point the finger from time to time despite being repeatedly told you’re closer to supporting Farage and helping the tories than I am. Uncomfortable fact. Predictable likes too.

    A national ID card is fine, I carried one for years without issue.

    What is that supposed to mean?
  17. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    Even ignoring the blindingly obvious link between a Brexit mindset and right-wing authoritarianism, you do realise that an enforced ID card will disproportionately lose huge numbers of *Labour* votes? It will hit the poorest, ethnic minorities, and the young the hardest (and IMHO very deliberately). That strikes me as something that impacts you, way, way more than me. I honestly don’t care if Labour get any votes next election. I know they won’t be getting mine!
  18. Seeker_UK

    Seeker_UK I had amnesia once or twice...

    What if it's a free ID card?
  19. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    I’d put money on it not being. This is a very cheap ctrl-c ctrl-v of some remarkably ugly US Trump/Republican policy that has kept the right to vote as far away from poor black areas as possible.
  20. sean99

    sean99 pfm Member

    Lexiters have been ignoring this one since before the referendum in 2016. It must be a significant ongoing mental effort to ignore it, but I think the realization, deep down, that they have enabled the most right wing, authoritarian government in modern UK history underlies their inability to publicly admit they made a mistake.
    TheDecameron and Covkxw like this.

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