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Labour Leader: Keir Starmer IV

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One of your favourites blew a great chance to chancege UK politics for the better in 2010.

Your party followed a neoconservative Republican POTUS into Iraq destabilising the middle east and killing hundreds of thousands of people! More recently they could be found demanding A50 was implemented immediately without even the slightest strategy and voting for hardline far-right Tory authoritarianism. I was hugely disappointed by the LDs failing to walk away without PR, but be honest it is trivial compared to the damage and destruction Labour have caused to this and other countries. Lying to the HoC in order to take the nation into an entirely unnecessary right-wing war of imperialism is really as bad as it gets. Ever.
 
Your last few have been more amusing than usual as you try hard to take the piss but it’s not working.

‘My people’ until I left in 1975 voted Labour, the MP is Chi Onwurah. You’ll have to try harder.
Brian it’s a serious suggestion, if Labour can just get enough seats to form a minority government with sensible left of centre policies from the SNP. Sturgeon is to the left of Starmer- progressive on taxation (rises) and on NHS pay- more than Starmer was agreeing to. I can’t see Labour getting a majority again soon- a progressive alliance is now required to defeat the Tories. Your tribe has to stop voting Tory though for that to happen.
 
Your party followed a neoconservative Republican POTUS into Iraq destabilising the middle east and killing hundreds of thousands of people! More recently they could be found demanding A50 was implemented immediately without even the slightest strategy and voting for hardline far-right Tory authoritarianism. I was hugely disappointed by the LDs failing to walk away without PR, but be honest it is trivial compared to the damage and destruction Labour have caused to this and other countries. Lying to the HoC in order to take the nation to an entirely unnecessary right-wing war of imperialism is really as bad as it gets. Ever.
Labour isn’t ‘my party’. I would support the latest Green flavour if it had a realistic chance of removing the tories.
 
Brian it’s a serious suggestion, if Labour can just get enough seats to form a minority government with sensible left of centre policies from the SNP. Sturgeon is to the left of Starmer- progressive on taxation (rises) and on NHS pay- more than Starmer was agreeing to. I can’t see Labour getting a majority again soon- a progressive alliance is now required to defeat the Tories. Your tribe has to stop voting Tory though for that to happen.
Tribe now...it would be nice if you stopped doing it, I’m not holding my breathe though.

I’m not going to repeat yet again why no serious UK party can enter into a coalition govt with a nationalist party demanding a referendum on breaking up the UK.

Explain how you define ‘progressive’. People throw the word around but what qualifies a party as ‘progressive’? We had one of those in 2010 and look what happened then.
 
Tribe now...it would be nice if you stopped doing it, I’m not holding my breathe though.

I’m not going to repeat yet again why no serious UK party can enter into a coalition govt with a nationalist party demanding a referendum on breaking up the UK.

Explain how you define ‘progressive’. People throw the word around but what qualifies a party as ‘progressive’? We had one of those in 2010 and look what happened then.
Brian, I explained progressive: increased taxation to pay for public services and better pay for NHS staff being two. It goes further though- increased per capita spending on health than currently on offer from Labour/ Tories and reversing a decade of Tory cuts to public services.
Apologies, by tribe I meant your demographic- in terms of income, geography, Labour and ex-Labour voters.

The U.K. is going to split, it’s a question of when not if. Labour could take advantage of common policy aims now with the SNP or not at all, then who knows what their electoral chances are in England afterwards?

You could always move to Scotland as you had been suggesting to take advantage of the socialist policies already on offer here.
 
Brian, I explained progressive: increased taxation to pay for public services and better pay for NHS staff being two. It goes further though- increased per capita spending on health than currently on offer from Labour/ Tories and reversing a decade of Tory cuts to public services.
Apologies, by tribe I meant your demographic- in terms of income, geography, Labour and ex-Labour voters.

The U.K. is going to split, it’s a question of when not if. Labour could take advantage of common policy aims now with the SNP or not at all, then who knows what their electoral chances are in England afterwards?

You could always move to Scotland as you had been suggesting to take advantage of the socialist policies already on offer here.
So as per the last 4 x Labour manifesto’s. As I thought.

My demographic...funnier and funnier. Whatever next...
 
So as per the last 4 x Labour manifesto’s. As I thought.

My demographic...funnier and funnier. Whatever next...
Brian there’s a difference- one party is in power delivering these policy commitments, the other has been in opposition for 11 years. The question you have to ask is are you prepared to make pragmatic compromises or do you want to remain in a perpetual state of impotent aggrievement?
 
My promise to you is that I will maintain our radical values and work tirelessly to get Labour in to power – so that we can advance the interests of the people our party was created to serve.

Based on the moral case for socialism, here is where I stand.

1. Economic justice

Increase income tax for the top 5% of earners, reverse the Tories’ cuts in corporation tax and clamp down on tax avoidance, particularly of large corporations. No stepping back from our core principles.

2. Social justice

Abolish Universal Credit and end the Tories’ cruel sanctions regime. Set a national goal for wellbeing to make health as important as GDP; Invest in services that help shift to a preventative approach. Stand up for universal services and defend our NHS. Support the abolition of tuition fees and invest in lifelong learning.

3. Climate justice

Put the Green New Deal at the heart of everything we do. There is no issue more important to our future than the climate emergency. A Clean Air Act to tackle pollution locally. Demand international action on climate rights.

4. Promote peace and human rights

No more illegal wars. Introduce a Prevention of Military Intervention Act and put human rights at the heart of foreign policy. Review all UK arms sales and make us a force for international peace and justice.

5. Common ownership

Public services should be in public hands, not making profits for shareholders. Support common ownership of rail, mail, energy and water; end outsourcing in our NHS, local government and justice system.

6. Defend migrants’ rights

Full voting rights for EU nationals. Defend free movement as we leave the EU. An immigration system based on compassion and dignity. End indefinite detention and call for the closure of centres such as Yarl’s Wood.

7. Strengthen workers’ rights and trade unions

Work shoulder to shoulder with trade unions to stand up for working people, tackle insecure work and low pay. Repeal the Trade Union Act. Oppose Tory attacks on the right to take industrial action and the weakening of workplace rights.

8. Radical devolution of power, wealth and opportunity

Push power, wealth and opportunity away from Whitehall. A federal system to devolve powers – including through regional investment banks and control over regional industrial strategy. Abolish the House of Lords – replace it with an elected chamber of regions and nations.

9. Equality

Pull down obstacles that limit opportunities and talent. We are the party of the Equal Pay Act, Sure Start, BAME representation and the abolition of Section 28 – we must build on that for a new decade.

10. Effective opposition to the Tories

Forensic, effective opposition to the Tories in Parliament – linked up to our mass membership and a professional election operation. Never lose sight of the votes ‘lent’ to the Tories in 2019. Unite our party, promote pluralism and improve our culture. Robust action to eradicate the scourge of antisemitism. Maintain our collective links with the unions.

Sir Keir Starmer

And what do we get?

'Be More Tory'.
 
Brian there’s a difference- one party is in power delivering these policy commitments, the other has been in opposition for 11 years. The question you have to ask is are you prepared to make pragmatic compromises or do you want to remain in a perpetual state of impotent aggrievement?
What I said was no serious party can enter into a coalition with the SNP for the reason I have stated. You seem to think you know a lot about me, which means you will be aware I am not part of the decision making in the Labour party, or any other political party.

Perhaps you should think about pragmatic compromises. You won’t be getting agreement from an authoritarian Tory govt for a referendum on independence inside the next 20 years, at least not on terms that gives you a chance of winning.
 
And what do we get?

'Be More Tory'.
1-9.
I don’t believe there can be many examples of an opposition party delivering on ‘promises’ made before the party is in govt and making the decisions.

10. Subjective.
 
What I said was no serious party can enter into a coalition with the SNP for the reason I have stated. You seem to think you know a lot about me, which means you will be aware I am not part of the decision making in the Labour party, or any other political party.

Perhaps you should think about pragmatic compromises. You won’t be getting agreement from an authoritarian Tory govt for a referendum on independence inside the next 20 years, at least not on terms that gives you a chance of winning.
Brian, I know you’re not involved in Labour decision making , that would be absurd, yet you’re confident they wouldn’t enter into an arrangement to govern with the third biggest party at Westminster with 45 seats. Can you see them sitting it out for another five years when the chance to govern was in front of them?
 
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1-9.
I don’t believe there can be many examples of an opposition party delivering on ‘promises’ made before the party is in govt and making the decisions.

10. Subjective.
Starmer’s pledges are not time limited manifesto promises, they are universal moral values Starmer has pledged to stand by.

It’s not a question of delivering in power. It’s a question setting up and standing by a set of enduring moral values in order to get into power.

Moral values are for life, not just for elections

Labour’s problem is that the electorate as a whole does not know what Labour stands for and those that have been watching closely can see that Starmer has already broken a number of those pledges and rowed back on others. Labour is at best vague and uncommitted and at worst showing themselves to be just as devious and lying a party as the Tories.
 
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Cameron aped Tony Blair to get the Tories into power, cosmetically moving them toward NuLab with the backwoodsmen and their noxious beliefs kept hidden from public view, locked in the cellar. Now after 11 years ( on the way to 15 or more years) in office, the Tories have mutated into a populist right wing ethnic nationalist organisation infected by Farage.
I fear Starmer thinks he has to remodel Labour on that in order to get his Red Wall and swing voters back.
 
Cameron aped Tony Blair to get the Tories into power, cosmetically moving them toward NuLab with the backwoodsmen and their noxious beliefs kept from public view, locked in the cellar. Now after 11 years ( on the way to 15 or more years) in office, the Tories have mutated into a populist right wing ethnic nationalist organisation infected by Farage.
I fear Starmer thinks he has to remodel Labour on that in order to get his Red Wall and swing voters back.
Rather than a swing backwards and forwards, I fear there has been a rightward shift going back half a century. Blair achieved success by explicitly moving to the right, he appealed to Thatcherite and even to Thatcher herself who said that New Labour was her greatest achievement.

Cameroon and Osborne used Thatcher’s kitchen economics to institute austerity, hammer public services, decimate working conditions and thereby accelerate the rightward drift.

The problem in Labour is that the controlling NEC has only one idea, a hang over from the Blair years kept alive by the likes of McNicol and Mandelson, which is to declare war on the left and strengthen the love affair with the right.

If Labour is going to continue to put its shoulder behind the wheel going right, where do we end up? How far right is right enough? If we are not to end up going further right, we need a party that is going to push in a different direction, and Labour just ain’t it.
 
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Mutated is the wrong word - there has always been a Rule Britannia element in the Conservative party just as there has always been a more modern and progressive element: it's more a case of which has primacy and by how much.

The Labour and Liberal parties endure a similar internal conflict albeit across their own political territory.

The electorate watches all this going on and once every five years or so makes a decision based to quite an extent on which party has most convincingly masked its divisions.

Not a very edifying situation I know.
 
A fair portion of the electorate vote based on principle, the majority vote on self interest but unfortunately we aren't allowed to beat the real meaning of self interest into the stupid selfish fcukers.
 
A fair portion of the electorate vote based on principle, the majority vote on self interest

I suspect a lot actually vote on fear; fear of ’the other’, fear of change, fear of anything other than an ultra-wealthy public school ‘born to rule’ elite propping up an archaic monarchy as they always have. Tradition and ritual are remarkably hard habits to break, just look at the strangle-hold ancient religions still have on people.
 
I suspect a lot actually vote on fear; fear of ’the other’, fear of change, fear of anything other than an ultra-wealthy public school ‘born to rule’ elite propping up an archaic monarchy as they always have. Tradition and ritual are remarkably hard habits to break, just look at the strangle-hold ancient religions still have on people.
Centuries of heartfelt communal singing about being reigned over is designed to seep into the soul and preserve the ruling order ordained by God.
 
I suspect a lot actually vote on fear; fear of ’the other’, fear of change, fear of anything other than an ultra-wealthy public school ‘born to rule’ elite propping up an archaic monarchy as they always have. Tradition and ritual are remarkably hard habits to break, just look at the strangle-hold ancient religions still have on people.
No doubt, fear is easily exploited to mean 'in your own interest', tell people immigration is bad for them, that taxation is bad for them, that the unemployed are bad for them, that unions are bad for them, that the deficit is bad for them often enough and they'll believe you-even in the face of crumbling social services, NHS and education.
 
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