Labour Leader: Keir Starmer II

[ks.234]

Are the Greens a credible alternative? I ask in a serious manner, not having looked to any great extent at their policies apart from a discussion with a colleague, in which I sought to disprove that they had no policies!

I like what the Greens stand for, and while Lucas is brilliant, when you get down to local level, where the organisation happens, it’s very poor. As an example, not long ago I emailed the Secretary of my local association asking if I could come to their next general meeting. I got back a single word answer, ‘yes’. Nothing else. No date. No venue. Nothing.

 

[ks.234]

Recent years of endless factional infighting has shown the whole Labour party structure to be broken, stagnant and corrupt to its core. That really isn’t for me to sort out. My only power is not to vote for them, which I won’t!

Again, not disagreeing. In fact I share your disillusion with the Labour Party and the corruption that is so virulent that parts of the party actively campaigned for the other side in the last two elections. But my disillusion is fed by a profound sense of betrayal that runs so deep I feel entitled to claim the disillusioned high ground!

However, my question was not about the about the Labour party, my question was, does any party have a vision for a radical change of the political system?

 

[gavreid]

I became sick of the Labour party when Foot supported the Falklands war. That was my introduction to the behaviour soft left, as they split from Benn to support the right. I've never been a member consequently - my Dad had left in the 70s as a result of the social contract, but I was too young to understand at that point. His parents were in the ILP before the war - so proper centrists

 

[Seeker_UK]

However, my question was not about the about the Labour party, my question was, does any party have a vision for a radical change of the political system?

The way a lot of the conversations go on here, you'd think the Tories seem to be looking for radical change to the political system.

 

[Tony L]

However, my question was not about the about the Labour party, my question was, does any party have a vision for a radical change of the political system?

The Greens, Lib Dems, and I think Plaid support PR, which is a start. For me that is the first and most crucial step.

Give people the basic right that their votes actually result in parliamentary representation and beyond that point voting behaviours will change as they are no longer just given a choice between brown vs. white dog shit. I am certain the Green Party would be a real major player if it wasn’t the equivalent of spoiling your ballot paper the way it is now. Obviously Yaxley Lennon’s Fat White Shithead Racist Party or whatever he called it would get some MPs too, as would manipulative spivs and con-artists such as Farage, but that’s fine. PR tends to balance-out around the centre-left after a few tries, which I’m sure is where the consensus actually lies. As such it becomes less about parties/institutions and more about ideas. It just has to be better than where we are, and appears to be everywhere else other than Israel (a religious country pretty much at war with its different religious neighbours, so highly atypical).

 

[ks.234]

The way a lot of the conversations go on here, you'd think the Tories seem to be looking for radical change to the political system.

The Tories are for pragmatic rather than radical change. Nevertheless, who else is proposing more radical change than the Tories?

 

[ks.234]

The Greens, Lib Dems, and I think Plaid support PR, which is a start. For me that is the first and most crucial step.

Give people the basic right that their votes actually result in parliamentary representation and beyond that point voting behaviours will change as they are no longer just given a choice between brown vs. white dog shit. I am certain the Green Party would be a real major player if it wasn’t the equivalent of spoiling your ballot paper the way it is now. Obviously Yaxley Lennon’s Fat White Shithead Racist Party or whatever he called it would get some MPs too, as would manipulative spivs and con-artists such as Farage, but that’s fine. PR tends to balance-out around the centre-left after a few tries, which I’m sure is where the consensus actually lies. As such it becomes less about parties/institutions and more about ideas. It just has to be better than where we are, and appears to be everywhere else other than Israel (a religious country pretty much at war with its different religious neighbours, so highly atypical).

I don’t believe PR on its own will be enough to wrest control of politics from the clutches of vested interests. An independent, or at least a balanced media would also be important, along with reform of HoL’s, the honours system, education, etc etc

 

[Woodface]

If you had ‘none of the above’ as a choice it would romp home.

 

[ks.234]

If you had ‘none of the above’ as a choice it would romp home.

Sign up here. NOTA UK

 

[gavreid]

I don’t believe PR on its own will be enough to wrest control of politics from the clutches of vested interests. An independent, or at least a balanced media would also be important, along with reform of HoL’s, the honours system, education, etc etc

You can vote any party in but you'll never gain true financial and economic control. The vested interest is deep and runs independently of Parliament

 

[wylton]

There are sadly way too many vested interests for that to ever happen, so it won’t, and we’ll likely be stuck with Tory elitism and corruption for the rest of my life.

I do hope you are wrong Tony, I honestly do!

I like what the Greens stand for, and while Lucas is brilliant, when you get down to local level, where the organisation happens, it’s very poor. As an example, not long ago I emailed the Secretary of my local association asking if I could come to their next general meeting. I got back a single word answer, ‘yes’. Nothing else. No date. No venue. Nothing.

Yes, agreed that Lucas is brilliant, but I suspect that what you say about the Greens in general is true.

 

[droodzilla]

Has Keir Starmer said anything about the asylum seekers crossing the English Channel?

If not, I assume this is the official Labour line:

Dreadful, formulaic stuff. To see how bad it is, consider that it's entirely consistent with the Tories sending gunships to the Channel to sink the dinghies. Would Labour then congratulate them on a job well done?

Contrast the above statement with the moral clarity of the previous shadow immigration minister:

See also, Keir Starmer's sixth pledge: https://keirstarmer.com/plans/10-pledges/.

This could go on the "immigrants and racists" thread but it seems more appropriate here, since Starmer shows no sign of defending migrants' rights, and every sign of not wishing to upset the racists.

 

[Tony L]

This could go on the "immigrants and racists" thread but it seems more appropriate here, since Starmer shows no sign of defending migrants' rights, and every sign of not wishing to upset the racists.

Sadly we appear to be in a race to the bottom morally; the Tories being what they always have been (little has really changed there from the ‘Want a n***** for a neighbour, vote Labour!’ days IMHO), and Labour realise they lost the last election mainly because their racists deserted the party for Farage or the Tories. The dialogue of both parties now appears to openly pander or at least capitulate to this vile nationalistic mindset rather than having the dignity and integrity to stand and fight against it, though there are many MPs on the Labour side who are clearly very uneasy. It will be interesting to see what happens next, though I find it hugely disturbing, mainly because it is a clear deflection from poor handling of covid 19 and a crumbling economy. Rome burns, but look! Brown people in a dinghy!... The terrifying thing is it works.

 

[Seanm]

Has Keir Starmer said anything about the asylum seekers crossing the English Channel?

If not, I assume this is the official Labour line:

Dreadful, formulaic stuff. To see how bad it is, consider that it's entirely consistent with the Tories sending gunships to the Channel to sink the dinghies. Would Labour then congratulate them on a job well done?

Contrast the above statement with the moral clarity of the previous shadow immigration minister:

See also, Keir Starmer's sixth pledge: https://keirstarmer.com/plans/10-pledges/.

This could go on the "immigrants and racists" thread but it seems more appropriate here, since Starmer shows no sign of defending migrants' rights, and every sign of not wishing to upset the racists.

To be fair, Ribeiro-Addy’s statement is less equivocal than any I remember Corbyn’s team making the last time the media tried the invading dinghies routine (much less successfully: I think the real difference this time has been the BBC and Sky turning up to film them as if they were the subject of a nature documentary).

Even under Corbyn Labour were scared to take a stand on this and explain the issues, face down the misinformation, make the case for a more humane approach to refugees. Shoudn’t have put it off. Now, just when we can’t afford not to take a stand, we have a Labour Party fully committed to not taking a stand about anything.

 

[droodzilla]

To be fair, Ribeiro-Addy’s statement is less equivocal than any I remember Corbyn’s team making the last time the media tried the invading dinghies routine (much less successfully: I think the real difference this time has been the BBC and Sky turning up to film them as if they were the subject of a nature documentary).

Even under Corbyn Labour were scared to take a stand on this and explain the issues, face down the misinformation, make the case for a more humane approach to refugees. Shoudn’t have put it off. Now, just when we can’t afford not to take a stand, we have a Labour Party fully committed to not taking a stand about anything.

Not sure about that. Corbyn's first speech as leader was to a "refugees welcome" rally and a quick google returns a few tweets from him in support of refugees,and this:

https://jeremycorbyn.org.uk/article...e-refugee-camps-in-northern-france/index.html

Not so sure about his team, but it's hard to imagine, for example, Diane Abbott nodding along to the "invaders" narrative.

I agree that this time round seems much worse and that the reporting from Sky and the BBC has been stomach-churningly awful.

 

[Seanm]

Not sure about that. Corbyn's first speech as leader was to a "refugees welcome" rally and a quick google returns a few tweets from him in support of refugees,and this:

https://jeremycorbyn.org.uk/article...e-refugee-camps-in-northern-france/index.html

Not so sure about his team, but it's hard to imagine, for example, Diane Abbott nodding along to the "invaders" narrative.

I agree that this time round seems much worse and that the reporting from Sky and the BBC has been stomach-churningly awful.

She didn’t do the invaders thing, but there was a lot of We have to persuade them not to come in the first place, and It’s really all about stopping the people smugglers. So not really challenging the existing right wing framework. Now of course they’re identifying with it fully. The centrist pundits are ecstatic.

 

[gavreid]

The Labour right has has history of support for, colony, empire, imperialism you name it. They voted for the bombs that have led to these problems ffs, against the party whip.

 

[Woodface]

The reporting of the asylum boats is utterly appalling.

 

[gavreid]

This little history of UK recession is quite good - notice the origin of the 70s problems is not linked to Labour at all - who'd have though it

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...ks-covid-recession-compare-with-previous-ones

 

[droodzilla]

The Labour right has has history of support for, colony, empire, imperialism you name it. They voted for the bombs that have led to these problems ffs, against the party whip.

Funny you should say that. Holly Lynch, the shadow immigration minister quoted above, is one of only 20 or so Labour MPs left in the HoC who voted (against the whip) to assist the bombing in Syria in 2015. I'll never forgive Hilary Benn for his shameful contribution to that debate.

And you're right about Labour generally. I don't think it's a great book but Maya Goodfellow's Hostile Enviroment is a useful history of the immigration debate in the UK, which clearly describes the Labour Party's complicity in (and enthusiasm for) anti-immigrant rhetoric.